How I Built My Small Business
2025 Communicator Award of Excellence in the Educational Series category
2024 People's Choice Podcast Awards Finalist Nominee x 2
Named "One of the Best Business Podcasts" by Ramsey
Welcome to 'How I Built My Small Business,' where we explore real-life entrepreneurship and building a meaningful, balanced life.
I started this podcast to honor my dad and help others navigate the messy, meaningful path of entrepreneurship. My guests (diverse in industry, experience, and background) open up about the real stories behind building a business: the wins, the mistakes, and the values that shape their choices.
It’s turned into more than I imagined… sometimes it’s a masterclass, other times it’s an honest, heart-opening connection between two people. But it’s always about curiosity, growth, and learning through storytelling… with a sprinkle of life wisdom.
Every guest has started a business at some point in their journey, and I make a conscious effort to maintain a 50/50 split of women and men.
Whether you're a founder, dreamer, curious individual or lifelong learner, I hope each episode makes you think or leaves you with at least one spark that inspires your own path.
Thank you for listening. Let’s learn together.
My Website: https://www.annemcginty.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annemcginty/
Behind-The-Scenes: https://www.instagram.com/annemcgintyhost
How I Built My Small Business
Samantha Rose - Behind-The-Scenes with a 3x NYT Bestselling GHOSTWRITER
Today’s guest is Samantha Rose, an Emmy award-winning television writer and three-time New York Times Bestselling ghostwriter.
She’s the founder of Yellow Sky Media, a literary development company that collaborates with celebrities, experts, and industry leaders to bring their powerful stories to life.
Recently, Samantha stepped into the spotlight with her own memoir, Giving Up The Ghost, a poignant exploration of the grief and unanswered questions that followed her mother’s suicide.
Her work has reached readers around the world, with projects translated into more than twenty languages and featured in the Wall Street Journal, Harper’s Bazaar, Time, and selected as Reese’s Book Club and Target Bookmarked picks.
Subscribe on Apple Podcast , Spotify or YouTube.
Let’s connect!
Subscribe to my newsletter: Time To Live: Thriving in Business and Beyond
Website: https://www.annemcginty.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annemcginty
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annemcgintyhost
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business. I'm Anne McGinty, and today's guest is Samantha Rose, an Emmy Award-winning television writer and three-time New York Times bestselling ghostwriter. She's the founder of Yellow Sky Media, a literary development company that collaborates with celebrities, experts and industry leaders to bring their powerful stories to life. Recently, samantha stepped into the spotlight with her own memoir Giving Up the Ghost, an exploration of the grief and unanswered questions that followed her mother's suicide. Her work has reached readers around the world, with projects translated into more than 20 languages and featured in the Wall Street Journal, harper's Bazaar Time and selected as Reese's Book Club and Target bookmarked picks. You can find links to connect with Samantha in the episode's description.
Speaker 1:If you've been tuning in, you know this show isn't about selling anything. It's about sharing meaningful stories and learning along the way. If how I built my small business has brought you any insight, inspiration or even just a spark of curiosity, there are a few simple ways you can support the journey Follow the show, share your favorite episode with a friend or leave a quick review. Each one truly helps me grow this show. Thank you, let's get started. How did you first get into writing and then how did that turn into Yellow Sky Media?
Speaker 2:Well, I have always enjoyed writing. I majored in journalism in San Francisco State and then at Sonoma State, so I've always been a writer and I come from writers. My mother was a writer and also my stepfather, so I grew up around a lot of journalists, so I guess it was a calling or it was what I knew. I was living in Austin, texas, and well, what happened is I started writing a blog back in like 2005, when writing blogs was kind of new and hip and not everyone in the world had a blog, and I was a new stepmother and there was a whole mommy blog explosion on the scene at that point, but there weren't a lot of stepmothers blogging, and so I thought there was a little niche opportunity for me there.
Speaker 2:So I started a stepmother's blog called stepmother's milk, and I think that was around the time I decided to just also create a company around it. Not knowing where it would go, I had great dreams of it becoming some big thing. It did actually launch me into writing books. So I was approached by a New York agent pretty early on in the blogging journey who asked if I wanted to write a book, and so that was my first memoir, called the Package Deal based on that blog and then I parlayed that into ghostwriting, so Yellow Sky Media became sort of the parent company that I did all these things under.
Speaker 1:That first book that you published? Was that under your name, or was that co-authored?
Speaker 2:Well, that was under a pen name, because I was writing my blog under a pen name, izzy Rose, just to be kind of to protect my family. I was writing about my stepsons and my new husband and myself, and so that book was written under that pen name. And then all my ghostwriting books if I get cover credit or credit in the acknowledgements it's Samantha Rose. So it's been interesting that the ghostwritten books are under my name, but my first memoir was under a different name and then my new. My new memoir that just came out is finally just my own, written under Samantha Rose.
Speaker 1:That must feel so good. It does feel good Well. So I do want to get to your book at some point, but I want to just dive in a little bit more on this ghost writing that you started doing. I'm just wondering. So let's say that a business owner contacted you and just felt that they had a very compelling story or insights that they wanted to share. Like, what is your process to help pull that story out of them if they're not a natural storyteller or a writer?
Speaker 2:That's how I get a lot of clients. These are folks who aren't writers. Typically, they have a great idea. They have a company or a product or a business or a life legacy story that they want to get down on paper, but they don't have the time or the know-how to do it. So ghostwriters most often we write the entirety of the book, so it's not collaborative in the way that some people might think, where they're writing a little and then I'm writing a little. Most everything I've written I've written exclusively for the client I'm working with, and so the way that happens is through creating a really intimate relationship with a person, like we're doing now. We talk a lot either on zoom or on the phone regularly, and so I'm getting their story and their voice in my head. Most every book I've written and I have 17 books now under my belt are first person narrative, so I'm writing as my client, and I'm able to do that by getting to know them and listening really closely to what they have to say and then channeling it back onto the page.
Speaker 1:How long does that process take for you to really feel like you know the person's voice and you can maintain that for the duration of the book.
Speaker 2:I can get a sense pretty quickly. I have an ear for dialogue and just the pacing of how people speak and I remember dialogue really well. I remember how people say things and what they say, which my son and some of my friends find really irritating. So I can get a sense pretty quickly. Although it's, it's helpful when people are open, right. So the the projects that have been the most difficult are when people withhold and and they don't want to engage in open conversation because I can't. I can't start to hear you sort of as my own voice unless you open up to me. But I've had most. All my clients have been able to do that. It's really an amazing partnership because there's so much trust involved. I'm still quite astonished that people are able and willing to open up and tell their story and allow me to write it down for them.
Speaker 1:What you're saying really resonates with me because, as a podcast host, of course I'm hoping that my guest can feel vulnerable enough that they can speak authentically and with heart. I'm curious to know what sort of methods or questions or types of conversations you have with your clients in order to get them to feel comfortable enough to go deep.
Speaker 2:It's just meeting and engaging in conversation. I do ask a lot of questions. I'm really curious about people and maybe that's the journalism in me. People speak and it brings up a question in me and I'll say, well, what about this? Or, you know, can you tell me more about that? I've also. I'm a big proponent of therapy. I've had lots of therapists in my life and I think, without realizing it, there's some osmosis that's happened there, where I'm able to I don't know ask meaningful and pointed questions or notice things about what people are saying that point us in a new direction. I've had some of my clients say you're more like a therapist than a book coach. I don't know. I think it's. There has to be a chemistry there where both of us are willing to just talk and be honest, and that's when we get the best stuff.
Speaker 1:And I think that when you mentioned curiosity, I feel like a deep curiosity about the person that you're speaking with is always helpful, Like I find that every single person that I speak with is absolutely fascinating and they have something to share or teach me and share In a similar way, people have said after these interviews that it's like business therapy. So when somebody is telling you their story or they're answering your questions, what details are you looking for that you believe make it resonate with readers?
Speaker 2:I look for interesting dialogue. I listen for details about a story that might seem inconsequential or maybe even boring to the person telling them, because we don't always notice the details in our own stories because we know them so well. So I might say no, no, no, tell me more about that, like you mentioned that you were wearing, you know a green shirt or whatever. So I might say no, no, no, tell me more about that, like you mentioned that you were wearing, you know a green shirt or whatever. So I pull out details.
Speaker 2:I think little moments like that what someone's wearing, or where they're sitting, or you know what they're drinking, or it can seem like very surface stuff, but details bring stories to life. I also I love dialogue, so I'll encourage us to talk out who said what in a scene. Again, when people start telling me what they want to talk about or what their story is or what their message is, it brings questions to the front for me, and so we'll just, we'll just tease them out. You know, I'll go as far as I can with them until they say are we done now?
Speaker 1:And what are the genres that you specialize in?
Speaker 2:I write a lot of personal growth, spirituality, there's business, leadership, personal growth, inspirational. I've done memoir, I've done some parenting, I've done a lot of different things nutrition, lifestyle. I steer away from heavy science and politics and history only because my brain doesn't hold that information very well and so it's harder for me to capture it and then relay it back onto the page. I can do it, but it's harder for me. I'm much more attuned to people's intimate thoughts and feelings and reflections. I can capture that much better for some reason.
Speaker 1:So if someone wanted to write a book and we know a lot of people out in the world really do want to write a book and they don't know where to begin and they're not at a place where they're ready to hire a ghostwriter what kind of advice would you give them?
Speaker 2:I would suggest they make a list of books that really resonate and that inspire them and might be the type of thing they want to write. Similarly, what are the things that you don't want to write? I often give this assignment, especially for people writing book proposals. You know, go into the bookstore or pick books from your own library that have really moved you, not that you're going to write that book, but just to get a sense of the kind of work you want to do. And this could be is it about the setting or the scenes in these books? Is it about the characters or the dialogue? Like, what are the pieces and elements that really resonate with you that you would like to mimic or mirror in your own writing?
Speaker 2:I think that's just a good clarifying exercise. It's about taking notes. I have a I'm a big list maker. I buy stacks of post-its and I'm always writing down just ideas, and then I create like bucket lists of separate documents, of themes in the book or settings or different people, and I just start putting random pieces of information in there and they're kind of a jumbled mess, but they're at least organized in sections.
Speaker 1:But to just start getting things written down by like topic, like during the day, as you're going about the day. If you have a great thought, you just jot it down.
Speaker 2:Like bucket lists of things, songs that inspire you. Like the book that I just wrote, a lot of songs were inspiring different things that I was writing at different times and I just so I had a separate list of music to go back to to kind of jog my memory about. Oh right, that that idea about, or the song title jogged something in me that I wanted to write a work into a chapter head per se. But I'm just like accumulating information and keeping it sort of messy, but in an organized mess, instead of just one big document, I think makes people feel crazy and like this can never become anything. So I'm also a fan of table of contents and just giving yourself grace that they're fluid and they can change at any time. But to just start thinking in terms of flow what happens first, what happens next and oh, I definitely know I want a scene where this happens I'm going to put it in right here now and maybe it'll move later but to start working with an organized table of contents some people hate that. I mean, the other thing is putting yourself on a schedule and again, this isn't always popular advice because a lot of people say it and I think aspiring writers want to work around like no, I don't want to put myself on a schedule, tell me something else to do.
Speaker 2:But you have got to carve out time to just sit down or saddle up to your standup desk and write, whether that's a whole day a week or one hour a week. But it's protected time that you do not interfere with, because I do this too. You know, waiting for this fantasy moment later down the road where I'm going to have six weeks of open-ended time and I'm going to sit down and write. Just, it doesn't happen for most people and it just doesn't. And so I write and read every day. I mean, I also write for a living, so I have to write every day. But even it does build on itself. I mean, even one hour a week, week after week, does build on itself in not just in creating the content building on itself, but building the muscle of writing builds on the repetition of doing it, and it can be hard to get started, but I mean I feel like getting started is really the hardest piece. Once you have built it into your schedule in some kind of way, it does get easier. I promise it really does.
Speaker 1:So are you suggesting that people just write about anything? They find a journal prompt and they just start answering it. If they want to write about their day, they just write. Or or are you meaning to be deliberate about, once they've sort of thought about their table of contents or their outline, that they sort of pick a topic within there and and try to tease that out?
Speaker 2:I would say either one. Okay, because the other magical thing that happens with writing is that it reveals things to you that you did not know were there, and I discovered this in the book that just came out. There were things that I didn't even know about that story, or about myself, or about the relationship with my mother that revealed themselves in the writing. And it is just. One of the magical aspects of creativity is that it surprises you. You know, even though it's being generated by you, there's something unknown that will come to the surface, and it usually will. It'll work itself out on the page. If you give yourself the time to do it, it will. So, even if you think, oh, I'm sitting down to write this and it feels random, I don't know where it's going, I don't know where it fits, if you invest the time in it, I think it will tell you where it wants to be.
Speaker 1:And if somebody did this who was again moving towards a goal of eventually wanting to publish a book? And they have pages and pages and pages of this writing, but it's somewhat incoherent, it doesn't flow well. Is that a point at which they would come to you, or do they need to polish it further before approaching you?
Speaker 2:I work with people at all different stages. So I work with folks who are writing book proposals and they haven't done different stages. So I work with folks who are writing book proposals and they haven't done anything yet. So I coach them through that process. I work with some people who have a full manuscript, like you're describing. That's, that's somewhere, but it needs a lot of organization and I help them with structure and organization and flow. Some people just need an editor, you know, and their stuff is pretty clean coming in. So I work with people at all different stages.
Speaker 2:I think the hardest stage to work with people is just from concept. They have an idea but they haven't written anything yet. I like to work with people at that stage and I am currently working with a couple like that and I am currently working with a couple like that. But getting over that hurdle of starting is, I think, the hardest. So a coach does help in that capacity because I, you know, I keep you accountable more than anything with you weekly or biweekly to keep you accountable moving forward. A lot, of, a lot of people just want permission to write. A lot of folks I think if it's not your profession, it feels indulgent maybe, or there's so many other things to make time for, so you don't make time to sit down and write. But having a coach to say, no, your story is important, what you're telling me feels relevant and important to say, so make the time to do it.
Speaker 1:How long average? I know this is probably a very difficult question to answer, but how long can that process really take before you feel like you've got the story or that they have their story?
Speaker 2:If I'm the ghostwriter on it, I usually turn full books within six months. Whoa, but that's. You know, that's writing every day and not for an hour, and that's five or six or seven hours a day. It's a full-time job. I've been doing it for almost 20 years, so I can work pretty quickly for somebody else. I mean, I usually talk to them at the onset, let's have an end goal in mind and then we work backwards from there. I think it's important to have a deadline. Deadlines are important. As much as we might hate them, they do keep us moving forward and motivating us, and they can move. You know we'll make room for vacations and emergencies and things that come up, but let's let's have a deadline and work backwards from that.
Speaker 1:And then how do you decide which publishing route to take? So, of the 17 books that you wrote, did you do proposals for all of them?
Speaker 2:Yes, most all of them.
Speaker 1:Which type of publishing did you choose for those?
Speaker 2:So all the books that I have ghostwritten came in through an agent and have been traditionally published. So most of my publishing background is with the big five. I think it's the big five, no, I think there's only four. Now it's hard to keep track because publishing consolidates like everything else. So those have been. They come in through an agent usually and I write the proposal and then the agent sells them. Now a lot of my coaching clients aren't agented or they don't have a publishing agreement before I meet with them, and hybrid publishing and self-publishing is is really popular. Some people really want to be traditionally published and that can still happen, but there are options now that weren't before, which is great. So if you have a story to tell, you can tell it, you can get published.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting how somehow traditional publishing has been able to maintain its prominence. Well, I guess it's changing now, but it does feel like the whole business model has shifted. From an outside perspective Like I don't really know what I'm talking about because I'm not in the industry, but from an outside perspective and from people I've spoken to who are in the industry it feels like there's a lot of shifting that's taken place.
Speaker 2:There is a lot of shifting and I think it's good news for writers, because there's more opportunity to get published now than before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. It's a nice way to look at it. I guess there's also a lot of noise to compete with. So, that was the other thing that I was wondering is that when you are helping to create these stories and you know what all of the competing titles are that are on the shelves and just all of the different angles that are being taken, how do you find that balance, that angle that is unique, to carve a space on that shelf that really stands out?
Speaker 2:It's tricky. I mean and I follow that exercise I mentioned earlier I tend to go to bookstores. I still love to go to my local indie and just see what's on the shelves and to see what is selling. It's good news when what you're writing has already been written slightly right, because it tells you that it has a market, it has a readership and that it's saleable. So that you're competing with other books in the space is okay.
Speaker 2:You just want to find the one, like you say, the unique aspect that makes you pop out. Sometimes that's the personality of the author. Sometimes there's, you know, a tweak on messaging that's already out there, but there's a new way that they're looking at it. Sometimes you know it could be anything. Really, oftentimes it's a combination of those things. But you got to do your homework a little bit and study, study the market and see what people are reading. Publishing a lot is about forecasting what people are going to be reading in a year. You know future casting, and that's difficult, like it's hard to know that. So there's some guesswork that goes into it. But I think that there's a lot to be learned by looking at what is current now and what is sold in the past and then really thinking about what is it that I have that's different, or why? Why do I want to write this book like what is my, what's the why for me? And and making sure that that is front and center yeah, yeah, that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a good way to approach it and to think about it, because Because there's a million books out there, right On every topic and subject, so it's hard to find something that hasn't ever been done, and that's fine. I think people sometimes get deflated by that. Well, it's already out there, someone already wrote a book on this and yes, they have. But no one has written your book.
Speaker 1:What about the work that needs to be done outside of writing?
Speaker 2:So you know establishing an audience or having a newsletter or blog, whatever it is to help support your eventual book. Like how important do you feel? That that stuff is not for me so much to worry about. We do talk about it because it is a reality and the book that just came out, that I wrote my memoir Giving Up the Ghost my journey for that has been interesting because it has tapped into that question.
Speaker 2:So I have a background in publishing. I know a lot of editors and folks in that world. As a ghostwriter though, I had not written my own book under my own name ever and I knew that platform was going to be an issue and it was. It was what set me apart from getting a big, big publishing deal and not. I ended up going with a kind of a hybrid traditional publisher where platform wasn't as important. So it is something people need to think about, and if you don't have one, you just have to build one.
Speaker 2:And I've been trying to just focus on a few different things because there's a lot that you can do. You can get on the festival circuit, you can have a newsletter, you can have a podcast, you can do live events, you can do virtual events. I mean you can spend all day on this stuff and we only have so much bandwidth and emotional energy for these things. And finances, I mean. That's part of it too. So I steer people to think about what are three things that you'd be willing to do. Increase your social presence. Do you want to write? Do you want to? You know, substack is a place where a lot of writers are now to extend their reach, but that requires writing new content. Do you have the bandwidth for that? Maybe you're someone that wants to focus on meeting people in person, and so that would mean focusing on live events. But keep it. Keep it curated for what you're, what you're interested in doing and available to do, can't do it all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we, whatever you have the bandwidth for and what you want to do, because if you don't, if you're someone that doesn't want to go on podcasts, then just then. Don't focus your energy there. Focus it somewhere else. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about giving up the ghost a little bit because, as you mentioned, it was your first book written under your real name, and you've helped write 17 other books for people. What was the process like writing your own book this time, in comparison to helping others write theirs? It was great.
Speaker 2:I started out thinking, oh, I can turn this sucker in six months because that's what I'm trained to do and I'm writing my own story, so I don't have to interview anyone, I don't have to think how anyone else would respond to this on the page, I can just I'll be able to do this so quickly. Well, I was wrong there, because I was writing about me and my mother's relationship and specifically her death. She died by suicide. So it was a really emotional time of my life and my most meaningful relationship, and so it was not something I could just crank out. I realized that pretty quickly once I started outlining it.
Speaker 2:And then the first chapter and I thought, oh, wow, this is. This is going to take me a little bit longer, because I was actually processing a lot of my grief through the writing, through the writing, which ended up being the most cathartic and meaningful experience. So it took me a bit longer. I think I spent about a year writing in earnest, but I pushed other projects off my plate to write it. I was doing what I suggested you don't do earlier in our conversation, where sneaking in writing time here and there in between other things, and it just wasn't happening. So I was able to create a lot of open space to work on it.
Speaker 1:And I imagine, as you were saying, that the process was very healing for you.
Speaker 2:It was. It was really healing. So I had a handful of scenes and conversations in my mind that just kept banging around in my head, and so I wrote those first. So I wrote out of order, and as I was writing them and working them onto the page, I realized once they were down, they kind of lifted. They weren't so ever present, playing back in my head, which was really freeing and really cool actually. So once they were on the page, they had kind of an exercise out of my body not that I wasn't thinking about them, but they weren't nagging at me in the same kind of way. And so I realized that not only was I telling a story, but I was really working through grief and channeling it in the best way I knew how to do, which is through writing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a trauma release for you too. Grief to me, grief and trauma sort of go a little bit hand in hand when you relive those experiences in your head, the good and the bad, and they won't, you know, leave. And how is that process for you now that it's out and you're choosing a few different places where you can elevate your platform? But what is this post-release book launch space like? What does it feel like?
Speaker 2:It feels good. You know this. So my mom passed five years ago and then I was able to find a publisher who could launch the book almost to the five year anniversary date, which was so synchronistic and amazing, and that that just really happened recently. So this story has been living in me for five years and I've been writing about it and working it through my body and working with therapists and I've held it really tight and close to my heart and it's lived inside me and so now it's in book form and people are reading it and I feel a lot of release from it. And I feel a lot of release from it Having people read a story.
Speaker 2:That's so personal and I'm getting emails from folks who they have a parallel experience or it's resonating on different levels. They can relate to little details that I thought were just so my own Right and realizing no other people. There was one woman who's like I watch British Bake Off when I'm feeling really sad, we're, so it was like a little thing that I'd been binge watching British Bake Off because I couldn't stand to watch anything else when I was in the early hours of grief. So that has been amazing and I'm continuing to do that put myself out there and have conversations with people about loss and love and grief and mental health and their relationship with their mother, and so I feel like I'm in this sweet spot of it now when you and I were emailing before and we were speaking about our, our griefs, which sort of took place in a similar timeframe, and I don't know if I mentioned to you but the reason why I started this podcast was because of my dad's passing.
Speaker 1:So it too, has been cathartic in a different way. You know, my dad was very much into continued learning and compassion and helping other people. I wanted to live more like him and I find it to be so fascinating how, when our loved ones pass, they can have sometimes an even greater impact on our lives than when they were here. It's like it opens up a part of our hearts, or opens up like cracks. You open a little bit, right, I guess. Some people they get broken. I think I heard this analogy the other day. They get broken, but they create an armored shell and then they hold it all inside and for some of us they get broken open and they discover a new part of themselves from it.
Speaker 1:Has this been your experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel that way.
Speaker 2:You know, it wasn't the story I wanted to write, but it was the story handed to me, and my mom was a writer, as I mentioned, and I've spent most of my career writing, and so it felt like the natural thing to do would be to write about the experience and create a legacy for her.
Speaker 2:You know, part of the book, a big part of the book, is these conversations that she and I have when she was alive, but also I create this dialogue between she and I after she has passed, and we're having the conversations that I wanted to have with her and, even though she was no longer here, I decided, well, we're going to have them anyway, and I wanted to give her voice to comment on what had happened, so that her legacy didn't just end the day she passed, that it continued on and we worked. We worked with some of these things on the page, and so I feel that it became a responsibility to talk about. You know, suicide is not a subject everyone wants to talk about, and mental health and illness and the things that scare us, but there are important conversations to have, and if she had not died in the manner that she did, I would probably be doing something else right now, but because of how she left and because of how she lived, it has created this new chapter of my life.
Speaker 1:I loved what you were saying about creating dialogue with your mother as if it were today, after she's passed. I can imagine how that would also feel and for me personally, I would have a hard time delineating between am I creating that thought or am I actually hearing my father? Because there are times when I'm just going about my day and I'm just not in a space where I'm expecting to think about him, and but I will hear his voice and I wonder am I really hearing his voice? Like, is this some sort of consciousness surviving without a physical body? Or is my brain just creating it? And I'm pretty open to either one of those possibilities. I don't know how you feel about that.
Speaker 2:Well, I definitely raised that question in the writing of the book and I leave it to the reader to decide what's going on there. But I think ultimately it doesn't matter. Process and heal and come to a level of understanding that we didn't have before. Then it doesn't matter necessarily if it's our own mind creating the conversations or if they're inspired, divinely inspired or, you know, visitations from beyond. Maybe they're all three, but I definitely explored that a lot in the book and I do a process of automatic writing where I'm channeling her onto the page, much like I do when I'm ghostwriting and I talk about how now I'm ghosting the ghost and how isn't this interesting? And everyone's gonna think I'm nuts, but hey, it feels really natural and right and this is my training. So let's, let's do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I kind of want to try that process to just see what happens myself. If I were to have a conversation with my dad right now, like what would he say? I've never thought of doing that and I think I might try.
Speaker 2:I encourage people to do it, it's because it's not something that just I can do. And I make clear in the book I'm not a medium, I'm not a psychic, I you know I don't have expertise in channeling the dead, but I do think that we all have the capacity to open up to the unknown and the unseen and it really just all it requires is opening up and engaging, getting a little quiet, listening and then writing down what you hear.
Speaker 1:I think I'm going to do this. It just sounds like a fun exercise, if nothing else, just to see what happens. So now with Yellow Sky Media, it sounds like your workload shifts depending on the needs of your clients. Can you give us a glimpse into what it's like? Are you in office like? Do you work with anybody else? What are your weeks like and your days like?
Speaker 2:Okay, I wish it were more glamorous than it is. I do have an office away from my house. I worked in a home office for many, many years and then, after COVID, I just couldn't do it anymore. I had great training to work at home during COVID. Like a lot of people had to learn very quickly how to work out of their own homes. I was well greased in that department, but after we came out of that I thought I cannot. I cannot do this anymore. So I have a really great office down in downtown Petaluma that I go to most days.
Speaker 2:I my days are structured. I try to get in by, you know, 9 or 10 o'clock depending, after I drop my kid off at school and I write until I have to pick him up. So not quite banker's hours, but pretty close. I write Monday through Friday. Now some of that time is spent reading work that clients have written and I'm reading and editing for them. So I'm not completely head down writing all that time. It depends. I'm all referral based. So right now my workload is primarily working with a client on a ghostwriting project and then filling in with coaching, and it's really fun. I mean I meet really interesting people.
Speaker 1:How long did it take you to get to this point Like? I imagine that the early days of yellow sky media were a lot slower, as would be expected of any new business, but to reach this level like? How long did it take for you to get to such a comfortable pace?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess I was lucky that from the get-go I I had a book project and then I just kept leapfrogging. I had an agent that was bringing me work, so I give her a lot of credit, for as I was wrapping up one project she'd bring another one in through the door. And so I was. As I was finishing one, I was starting on the next, and I did that for probably 15 years without any break, sometimes working at two books at a time, but always almost starting and finishing a book a year. That's starting a proposal, proposal sales, writing a full length book and then by pub date. So just one after the other, after the other, and then it was in maybe 22. So not too far back.
Speaker 2:I started working as a coach, more filling in those gaps, and I wanted to create space to write my own book. So I was only able to do that, to pull back on writing a full length title. You know always have one that I was in and then filling in with clients. But I think that the client coaching work that that took years to to get to a point where people would come to me just on referral, you know. So that when I did have openings in my schedule that there was always someone. I usually have like a two to three month waiting period for coaching clients to come in. Wow, not always, not always. There's some where I'm like, oh, what are we doing here?
Speaker 1:Well, so I did want to know a little bit more about this type of a business for you, like what are the highest highs and what are the lowest lows?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the highest highs is that writing for me anyways a really magical creative process where you get to that place of flow, you know, and sort of time and space disappears and you're just in in the writing for hours there's. There's a lot of times where you know I look up and it's been four hours I've been standing at my desk writing and I'm like where did the time go? And oh, I look back at something I've written and think, oh, that's pretty good. I don't actually remember writing that. You know that that flow state, if you can get into it, is a.
Speaker 2:It's a pretty privileged and lovely way to make a living, whether that's whatever you do, whatever kind of creative form, so that's that's the high. Do whatever kind of creative form, so that's that's the high. And I get to make my own schedule, even though people think, oh, writers have all this flexibility and you know you're, you get to go in whenever you want, you get to. If you want to just take the day off, you can. Or if you decide you want to take a hike in the middle of the day, you know you're your own boss and I've never given myself permission to live that way. I'm not sure why, but I'm a pretty structured gal, but ultimately I get to make the choice to be structured, so I guess there's something freeing in that, I'd say.
Speaker 2:The low is that writing is a very solitary pursuit and the solitude piece of it that is required to get the job done can get kind of lonely, of it that is required to get the job done can get kind of lonely. And so I have to really challenge myself to connect and engage outside of my laptop when the workday is over and engage in the world, and that's something I continue to work on. I have these fantasies sometimes of you know being in an office where people are gathering and chatting over you know lunch and you know there's work events, and I've probably watched too many sitcoms where that happens and maybe that's not really the reality anymore, but in my fantasy mind I'm like everyone else is having so much fun and I'm just here with myself every day. So I'm trying to continue to work on challenging myself to integrate more people outside of the writing world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I suppose you could always increase the size of your team if you wanted to. So can you give us an idea of just how a ghostwriter earns income? Is this a per book fee, or do you get a cut of the performance of the book, or do you, or is it a combination of both?
Speaker 2:This is a great question. It comes up a lot in the ghostwriting community and a lot of us are working to have more of a standardized pace scale so that there isn't such a large discrepancy between one ghost and the next. I mean, certainly there are. There are those of us who've been doing it for longer than the newbies. But how does it work?
Speaker 2:Typically is I get to ask for a percentage of the advance and we set that up ahead of time a percentage of the advance, and that includes then royalties and often foreign rights. Sometimes it makes more sense to ask for a flat rate for the whole project going in, but always determining this ahead of time, usually in the proposal phase. The proposal is usually a separate entity and there's a range of what people charge, but typically between like five and $25,000 to write a proposal. And then my coaching is different and that's usually hourly but I charge in a block of hours. So I found that this works well. It forces people to commit to a certain amount of time, not an outrageous amount like 10, or commit to 10 or 20 hours and pay for them upfront, like you would for a gym membership, and then it keeps you accountable to me to show up and then it reserves space in my schedule. That has worked well. I know a number of ghostwriters. It's pretty standard working in that way.
Speaker 1:I can imagine a community of ghostwriters getting together and that just sounds like it would be a fascinating room to walk into, hearing what you all would be talking about. I just think that it would be a fascinating room to walk into, hearing what you all would be talking about. I just think that that would be fascinating.
Speaker 2:It is pretty fun. You know I didn't know any other ghostwriters for almost the 10 years or so that I was doing it and I thought I was the only weirdo on the planet that did this kind of work and come to find out there are many, many, many of us. I think it was last year or the year before and they're doing it again. This year was the first convention of ghostwriters in New York, put on by Gotham ghostwriters, which is a sort of a big collection of ghostwriters and there were I can't remember exactly maybe under 500, but all of us in one, one room together and it was really pretty cool.
Speaker 2:There are a group of us that admitted after the full day that it felt really weird. You know to be amongst so many of us because we're ghost writers and you know a lot of writers are natural introverts, so it was just felt very, very external and vulnerable to be so public about our craft. But also you know it was, it was awesome. You know you may feel lonely in your office writing our craft, but also you know it was, it was awesome.
Speaker 1:You know you may feel lonely in your office writing every day, but in fact you have a pretty strong niche community that really understands what your life is like For anyone listening in. Who wants to be a ghostwriter. What advice would you give to them? What would I?
Speaker 2:say there are a lot of us, but there is a great need for ghostwriting. I mean, a lot of books that are out there on the market now are ghostwritten, more than you probably think. Gotham ghostwriters there's a way to get on their list, so they have jobs, come up and then they kind of there's a way to get on their list, so they have jobs, come up and then they kind of they have this whole pool of us right that they can assign projects to. So there's several groups like that. I think there's like binders for ghostwriters, where you can get on these group chats and just kind of see the kind of conversations that people are having and you might be able to not all of them are member based, but get invited into those to wade in, meet some other people, maybe field some questions that you have.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting industry, one that I didn't even know existed before I fell into it, and it's been. It's been great. I mean, like I said, I've met some really, really interesting people and learned about topics that I would have never known about. You're writing for someone else. You're there as their support person, it's their book, it's their name, it's their story. So there is some detachment that you just have to have.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting. So, just as a final question for anybody that is coming out of college today, because we know the world has really changed and a lot of the things that we did we were able to get in before the internet or before cell phones or social media or anything existed. So the world has become noisier, more expensive, and I see a lot of challenges that young people are facing today. So this is a question that I ask everybody what life wisdom would you give to anyone who is graduating today?
Speaker 2:Well, I have a complicated relationship with technology. A lot is changing because of AI and and the publishing, you know, and I don't think we've seen where we're going to end up with all that. But I would say for people that are interested in getting involved in writing that I don't think there is a replacement for humans writing human stories. So not to give up on that and we're not replaceable and we all have important things to say. I think one of the things that I've learned about myself sort of late and I write about this a bit in Giving Up the Ghost is about how we are all our own light source and it doesn't serve anyone, it doesn't serve ourselves, to dim and to not use our voice in whatever way that is.
Speaker 2:I'm not only talking about writing, but I think, especially now, it's so important to recognize the importance of speaking up and to use it in whichever way you feel pulled. I mean, that's really general advice, but I think it's really important. And it is a crowded space. I can't imagine being someone graduating from college now. What a complicated world it is. I mean, there's opportunities now that there weren't maybe for us when we graduated. So there's pros and cons, but in terms of crowded space and competition and technology crowding out jobs. I would say just remember that there is no you other you and we're all here for some reason. I know that might sound corny, but there's something that you're here to do or say or facilitate or support, and that's your job.
Speaker 1:I think that's great advice. I don't think that's generic at all, and I think it's so important to, as you were saying, learn to express yourself, to share what you're thinking and to not shy away from letting your voice be heard. So I think that's lovely advice. Samantha, thank you so much for coming on and giving us a glimpse into what the world of ghostwriting is like. I've never spoken to a ghostwriter before and this was very interesting, so thank you. Thanks for having me Today's key takeaways.
Speaker 1:It's often the case that you can't see the full picture when you start, but when you look back, the dots connect. So follow your curiosities, even when the path isn't yet clear. If you want someone to open up, whether in an interview or everyday conversation, genuine curiosity is the fastest way to build connection. If you're an aspiring author but you don't know where to start, make a list of books that really resonate with you and inspire you and might be the type of book that you want to write. Likewise, pay attention to what you don't want to write. Be specific about what it is that you like or don't like, whether it's the descriptions, the dialogue, the setting or the format. These clues will help shape your own style and angle.
Speaker 1:The next six key takeaways are writing lessons that cross over into business. Capture ideas in the moment. Carry a notebook. Jot down phrases, scenes or questions when they appear. This is just as true for business ideation. We never know when an idea may pop into our minds, and it's much easier to jot it down in the moment than to hope to remember later on in the day. So get a notebook. Build the muscle of writing. Set aside time each week, even just 30 minutes, to write. Writing is a practice, and it will reveal things to you while you write. This, too, can be true for any skill you hope to develop.
Speaker 1:If you have a goal, whether it's a book or a business, deadlines create momentum. They help move your ideas from imagination into eventual form, whether you're writing a book or launching a business. Research what's already selling. If there's demand, then there's space. Ask yourself what's my unique spin? What perspective or voice do I bring that no one else can Try? To look into the future. What is being sold now, what was being sold in the past, and how might this be different in the future? Know your why this one is so important, whether you're building a business or starting a manuscript. Clarity comes from asking why do I want to write this or why do I want to create this business.
Speaker 1:It's nearly impossible to come up with something that's never been done. Don't get deflated by that, because no one else is you. Your story, perspective and voice are your edge. If you're aiming for traditional publishing, start building your platform. You don't need to do everything. Just choose three strategies that feel sustainable and aligned with your energy. You could do live or virtual events, a newsletter or sub stack, podcast interviews, social media presence, articles or essays. The list goes on and on. So choose what feels sustainable.
Speaker 1:If you have a part of your story, a memory that keeps on playing in your mind, try writing it out to help get it out of your head. In a similar fashion, if you've experienced grief from the loss of a family member or friend, try having a conversation with your loved one. Just get quiet and write down what you would say and what you think he or she may say back to you in an extended dialogue. You are your own light source and it doesn't serve you to dim your voice out of fear or self-doubt. Your expression is a contribution to this world. There is no other you. No one else has your exact mix of experiences, insight, voice or personality, and that alone makes your story worth telling. That's it for today. I release episodes once a week, so come back and check it out. Have a great day.
