How I Built My Small Business
Welcome to 'How I Built My Small Business,' where we dive deep into conversations with guests who've carved out their own path to success. But, we're not only about the creation of businesses. Alongside entrepreneurs, I also chat with experts offering perspectives that'll benefit anyone striving to lead, learn, or improve.
This podcast is both a creative outlet and a platform to share knowledge from incredible people. My guests open up about the raw, heartwarming details of their journeys, offering expertise, simplifying business know-how, sharing money-making ideas, and imparting life wisdom—all through the power of storytelling.
By listening to these interviews and stories, my hope is that you find even one little takeaway that sparks or inspires your path.
While most of my guests make $1 million to $20 million net profit a year, some make more and some make less, but there is a lesson worth learning in each one. I also bring in special guests from brokering and mergers, mindset and meditation, entertainment and marketing, among others. So, the line-up is diverse in niche, experience and perspective - and so, so fun.
Special episodes include:
No College, No Problem
Big business founders with a focus on helpful small business topics
Expertise in hyper-niche fields
The connecting piece is that every one of my guests has started their own business at some point in their journey.
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How I Built My Small Business
Jackie Ashton - Secrets to Landing a Non-Fiction Book Deal with BOOKMARK AGENCY
Today we’re diving into the world of publishing with Jackie Ashton—literary agent, journalist, and founder of Bookmark, a boutique agency helping thought leaders bring impactful books to life.
Before launching The Bookmark Agency, Jackie was an agent at Lucinda Literary, where she landed major publishing deals for authors like Dave Pell (Please Scream Inside Your Heart) and Scott Shigeoka (Seek). With a deep understanding of the publishing industry, she specializes in helping authors craft books that don’t just share expertise but resonate with readers, disrupt industries, and fill market gaps with empathy over ego.
She also shares her knowledge in The Big Idea, her free newsletter packed with insights on writing books that matter. And as a journalist and essayist, her work has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, and Salon.
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Welcome to how I Built my Small Business. I'm Anne McIntee, your host, and today we're diving into the world of publishing with Jackie Ashton, literary agent, journalist and founder of Bookmark, a boutique agency helping thought leaders and change makers bring impactful books to life. She specializes in helping authors craft books that don't just share expertise but resonate with readers and fill market gaps. She also shares her knowledge in the Big Idea, her free newsletter packed with insights on writing books that matter, and, as a journalist and essayist, her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post and Salon. You can find a link through to her business in the episode's description. Jackie, thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:It's great to be here.
Speaker 1:What made you decide to start your own boutique literary agency?
Speaker 2:I had been working as a literary agent for the last few years when the pandemic hit and, like a lot of industries, the book publishing industry prior to the pandemic was geographically isolated, for the most part in New York. I was working as an agent before the pandemic in San Francisco, so working remotely but still sort of feeling like New York is where you had to be. But then the pandemic hit and it really changed the opportunity, as I see it, for people working in publishing to be anywhere they want to be, and it also changed the dynamic around having a physical office. So the cost to start my own agency were so low and the opportunity was very different than it had been a few years before so it just seemed like a no brainer to do it myself.
Speaker 1:What can you tell us about what you believe makes a book proposal end up in the slush pile, like what makes them bad?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the number one thing I say to prospective authors about that is there's a significant difference between a book idea that's interesting to you or your mom versus a book that's interesting to, hopefully, millions of people. So there are lots of, like you know, really moving and interesting ideas that are interesting to you or a small group of people, but it's really hard to find that book idea that will resonate with, hopefully, millions of readers. And it's something that hasn't already been said, which is becoming harder and harder to achieve, especially with, you know, ai. Creating new books and new content it's like saying something new is really challenging now.
Speaker 1:How would you steer someone in the right direction?
Speaker 2:So I'd give them a few tips. They need to have what I call the H-mark factor. So there was a really popular book called Crying in H-mark, which I did not sell or represent the author, michelle Zahner. She wrote about one of the most common topics, which is someone getting cancer and dying. It's like one of the most common things that people write about because it's such a hard experience and so it's really important to you, the person going through it. But just to write about it in a different way is really difficult. And so she wrote about that experience of her mom getting sick and ultimately dying of cancer, by talking about Korean food. And that's why it's called Crying in H Mart, because H Mart is like the Korean food market that she was in when she started bawling, crying for the first time.
Speaker 2:She didn't have a following at the time. She sort of had the perfect storm of several things coming together all at once. One was just a factor that she's just an amazing writer, so that helps. Two was that she gave it what I also I call a container. So instead of telling us about the chemotherapy and the mother's hair falling out, she wrote about the tension between her and her mom at the kitchen. She wrote about her mother's sister and that dynamic all connected to food.
Speaker 2:There were a million other things she could have written about. She's now a very popular musician. She is a lead singer in a band called Japanese Breakfast. She could have written about that. She barely mentions that in the book and that's another mistake a lot of first-time authors make is they try to cram everything in the book and it's more important to think about it like a work of art and just pick your angle. That's really different, really surprising. Like study the other books that are in this area and ask yourself what is something that only I could say, that no one else can say about this topic?
Speaker 1:Can you give us an example of a book proposal that landed in front of you and immediately piqued your interest, and why?
Speaker 2:Yes, so there's several. There's one book that came out last year. It's called Seek how Curiosity Can Transform your Life and Change the World, and the author, Scott Shigeoka, is a curiosity expert and he was working as a fellow at the Berkeley Center for Greater Good and, like many authors, when his proposal first came to me, it was primarily written as a memoir or his personal story, and I really encouraged him to change it, because a memoir is it's really hard to do. Well, what Michelle Zahner did is amazing, but that's like you know, top 0.05% of writers in terms of their quality can actually accomplish that.
Speaker 2:And not to say that Scott wasn't a good writer he was a journalist for the Washington Post another outlet for a while but I saw what was valuable about his proposal is that what he learned about curiosity was a way to change the world, as he said. It was a way to bridge cultural divides and a way to bring people together, and I thought what do we need more than that in this world right now? Then a little bit of a how to based on somebody's experience and professional expertise how do we bring people together and not apart?
Speaker 1:Okay. So what questions could someone potentially ask themselves if they wanted to find that big idea? Yeah, if they wanted to prompt and do some journaling to tease it out.
Speaker 2:The first thing to ask yourself is if you could shout out from the rooftops one statement or question about your topic and one thing you wanted everyone to know, what would it be? One statement? That's a good place to start. Then I encourage them to drill down and, you know, look at bestselling books in this category, look at articles that are trending online in this category and ask yourself, like, what is like everyone saying about this topic that I disagree with, or what's not being said about this topic?
Speaker 2:And so another good example of that is another client of mine. She has a book coming out next year with Flatiron and her book is called Undimmed and it's an invitation for people to take a look at what she calls dimmers in your life. So it could. For her it was alcohol, it could be social media, it could be cigarettes, it could be TV, and she offers these series of awarenesses. She calls them to examine those behaviors, which was very opposed to the idea of naming herself as an addict, because she wasn't yet to that place and I didn't see anybody talking about a way to approach what might become an addiction or what is an unhealthy habit in that way.
Speaker 1:Yes, there are books about the formation of habits, but there's nothing really on the other end for when it switches from a habit to unhealthy. Yes, that's a really interesting timely topic. Yeah, so book proposals are what like 70 to 80 pages long, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I usually advise people to keep them more at like 30 to 50 if possible, because more isn't necessarily better. My job as an agent is to help the author create 30 to 50 pages, if that's what it takes to really sell themselves and their idea and the possibility. But to literally have the editor nodding their head at every single page. So with 80 pages, there's a lot of pages where you could not have a nodding of a head or, even worse, have someone get bored and put it down. So you really need to keep them engaged at every page and at every page you want the editor to be saying to themselves you know, this is amazing.
Speaker 2:I've never seen anything like this. There's no one's talking about this and this is the person to write this book. Because they read, I mean, in addition to all the books they've read in this category, they're also reading all the proposals on this topic, all the ones that you know came in and someone else bought, or all the ones that they're reading and then passing on. In addition to you know, amazoncom millions and millions of books. They're also reading all the potential books. So you have a really tough critic reading your book proposal and that is the thing that sells the book. You're not there. You don't get a chance to be there until you win that battle first.
Speaker 1:So you have to hook them pretty quickly. Yeah, beyond the description, the overview and the big idea, what are the other key elements that make a compelling nonfiction book proposal?
Speaker 2:So what I tell authors is their overview is the most important part of the proposal and that's like the first part of the proposal. That's really shouldn't be more than about two to three pages long and it answers the questions why this book? Why me? Why now? And you really need to paint a clear picture for the editor in those couple of pages. You know why this book. If you're writing about any topic that we can think of, unless it was invented yesterday, there's probably many, many books on it already, so why do we need another one? And editors will also be asking why a book? Could it be an article? Could it be a podcast? Could it be, you know, some other product? Books are expensive to make and hard to sell, so you have to make a good case that a book is needed.
Speaker 1:And if you're an unknown author, what are your real chances of getting a traditional deal?
Speaker 2:It's really, really, really hard. I won't sugarcoat it. I think in the memoir category it's like you've got to be a New York Times level, pulitzer Prize level writer to achieve that. If you look at the bestsellers in the memoir category, a lot of them are famous people. So the other way is if you're famous or if you have a lot of followers.
Speaker 2:But in the nonfiction category, I would say in the last five or six years that I've been in this business, it's become increasingly harder every year, unfortunately, because there's just so much competition, not only competition, you know, in terms of other books, but competition for people's attention.
Speaker 2:We used to put an author on the Today Show and it was like, oh, new York Times bestseller, slam dunk. You know, everyone will buy this book. And now, when you know, my client, scott Shigoka, did get on the on the Today Show and his book did really well, but it's not the slam dunk that it used to be in terms of the number of sales you see happening after a big media hit like that. And so for that reason, nonfiction authors today really are required to have a large platform and access to their readers. So, whether it's through a podcast or speaking engagements throughout the year or Instagram following, it doesn't really matter the channel so much. That kind of depends on the book, but you have to show the publisher that people are already coming to you for this topic. Information on this topic.
Speaker 1:So, now that you've honestly revealed that it's actually quite difficult for an author who is unknown to go the traditional route, how do you feel about the different routes available these days between traditional, hybrid and self-publishing?
Speaker 2:I think that it depends on the author's intentions with the book in terms of like, how I feel about them or which ones I recommend, because people write books for different reasons. For some people it's a story they have to tell. For others, they want it to be like a calling card for their business and they want to be able to hand it out to clients. Some people really do want that Penguin Random House mark of approval and achievement and excellence, and so it really depends on the author's intentions, and I think they're. You know, self-publishing can also work really well and sometimes for a first-time author who, who just really doesn't have a good shot of getting a deal with a major publisher, that's a great way to go. So, yeah, lots of options.
Speaker 1:What would you say about the marketing efforts? So, if you go traditional, how much of the book success is due to the publisher's efforts and how much is due to the author's efforts?
Speaker 2:You know, the publisher's efforts obviously don't hurt and they can be tremendously helpful, but I think, like most things in life, you know, whether it's starting your own business or writing your own book, the authors that are putting in the most sweat equity around their own book are the ones that end up being most successful.
Speaker 2:And because that also usually aligns with the author also being somebody that's worked hard to develop their platform and reach their readers and ideally you want an author who is sort of 10 years into the journey of talking about this topic and so they've spent years it doesn't necessarily need to take 10, but the idea is that they've spent years thinking about the idea, communicating with their audience, asking them questions, co-creating with them and then understanding what the need is through their interaction with their readers, instead of going off in a corner and writing their book that they think they need to write and then trying to like find the people who want the book because, right, that makes sense. It's like if you, you know, develop a pen that has a some kind of eraser on it that nobody wants, it doesn't sell unless you know. So you have to be in communication with your customers, which are your readers, and sometimes that dialogue ends up sort of guiding the author to create a different book than they would have on their own.
Speaker 1:Sounds like you're saying that you almost need to be fully immersed in the topic that you're exploring and writing about for many years. Yes, to eventually find the missing content or angle.
Speaker 2:Yes, a hundred percent. A hundred percent Because that's the other question that publishers will ask for nonfiction book deals is, even if they love, you know, they love the idea, they love the concept, they will ask themselves like is this author the right person to write this book or is this somebody that's just been, you know, dabbling in this for the last year or so? Like I said, it doesn't have to be a decade necessarily. My client, cecily Mack, is her name, and she, you know, is the one who is writing this book called Undimmed, and she has a following on Instagram. She has a community that she's created on Instagram called Clear Life, and she's got a podcast that she does interviewing amazing people like Young Pueblo and talking about, you know, their journeys to give up their dimmers, and I would say she probably had been working on it for about seven years in total, but her Instagram and her sub stack, I think she built within the last like year or two and it's it really took off, which also shows you that the timing is right.
Speaker 2:You know, every time I opened the New York times, I see an article about how people are giving up drinking and it's becoming so that's. The other thing is timeliness and trendiness. So that's another asset that Michelle Zahner had. Purely by luck, she is Korean and it just her book happened to come out when people were into K-pop and Korean skincare and so all things Korean were really sort of taking off, and I'm sure that she probably didn't care about that. This was her story and that's her heritage, but it just helped her because there were probably more media opportunities and I think Cecily will have that advantage when her book comes out, because the conversation around not drinking is very timely.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we've been hearing about that here in wine country too. That timing, though, is a bit hard to predict, right? Yes, because if you're pitching your book, how long does it actually take, like, what is the timeline that you go through from securing a book deal to then having it out in the world?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and this is what makes it so difficult for people who work in this industry and also for authors, is that it's trending now because that's really all we have, or at least what we think is coming down the pipe, and we have no idea. I mean, the pandemic's a great example. There were plenty of people who had books coming out in 2020 that just got completely overlooked because people were buying masks and toilet paper and they weren't paying attention to what books were coming out that week and there were just so many things that were unpredictable. So it's a challenging market for that reason, because you really don't know what market you're going to be trying to sell into once your book comes out.
Speaker 2:And that again goes back to why it's so important to have that direct access to your readers, because, again, like I said about the Today Show hits, it used to be the case that if an author came in with a proposal and they had connections at time magazine and the New York times and they had all these media connections, that was really a boon to their proposal. But now that's less powerful because it's like well, I mean, we don't know that they're going to want to write about this or we just don't you know, but whereas, like, if you have a massive newsletter, no one's going to list, no one's going to take that from you and we can't control what's happening in the world two years from now. But if you keep growing your newsletter list, you can bet that that's probably going to be a larger list than it is today, and so that's more of a sure bet.
Speaker 1:Sounds like there's an element of planning, but there's also an element of luck. It reminds me of this business I heard about in New Zealand and they imported thousands of RVs and Airstreams that just so happened to land in New Zealand right when the pandemic hit and they sold all of them and made like 10 or 20 million in a year. So that timing was lucky. So, for a first time author, realistically what should they expect in terms of book sales and earnings, like what is deemed a success?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm going to answer this question sort of like a politician.
Speaker 2:It's really hard to say it really does depend, because every marketing campaign and launch campaign is so different and so much of it is so unpredictable, and you would think that publishers that have worked in this business for decades would have that formula down to know like, okay, this is what you should expect. They really don't. They really don't. For some books, a TikTok influencer went on there and talked about their book and it took off. And for other people it just so happened that everybody was talking about bird flu or something that was just completely unexpected, and so it's really hard to kind of calculate in advance what that might be. But the way that publishers do it when they go to acquire a book is they create a P&L like a prospective P&L for your book and they look at what other books have done that are going to be sitting on a similar shelf as this book, with authors from a similar background as you. So they're not going to compare your book to Oprah Winfrey's book, but they are going to compare your book to other people who are alongside you professionally and then sort of look at how those books did and estimate how many copies they think they might sell, what their expenses are going to be, and that's how they come up with the advance that they offer, and it could range. You know, for self-published book it's going to be in the red. You're going to be paying somebody to create your book and cover the expenses, but on the flip side, you're going to have all the control over what your cover looks like, who you hire as an editor. It's just totally under your control because you're you're bearing all the costs.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, so for a book that they predict is going to do really well, you know you might get half a million dollars or more, and advance is basically like a prepayment. It's basically like this is what we think we're going to make on the book. And so then, as you sell your book for real sort of discounting against that advance and reaching the whole level of the advance in terms of sales is called earning out. After you earn out, you start to earn royalties. I would say most first-time authors do not earn out their advances. Some do, but certainly the ones with lower advances do more frequently. And you know publishers can do this because they have, you know, a long list of authors and some are up here and some are down here, and so it's a little bit of a portfolio way to run the business, and they've got Prince Harry who's carrying all the weight.
Speaker 1:So now at Bookmark Agency, you're a solo entrepreneur, so this is you working and choosing and deciding. What has that been like since opening? What has it been like and how many clients can you carry at one time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. It's been great. I think I decided to go out because of the reasons I stated and then also because I felt like I had. I was certainly continuing to learn at the agency where I was, but I felt like I had learned enough that I could take on the risk of going out on my own. And the one, the one thing I was nervous about after I got over the fear of like, will my current clients come with me, which they they did. The main fear I had was like, am I still going to get as many potential new clients coming in the door and are they going to be good prospects? And I was pretty certain that would be the case because at that point most of my clients were coming to me through my own referrals, like other clients I'd worked with were referring, referring others to me. But I just wasn't sure. I wasn't sure if they would really come now that I wasn't at a New York literary agency and now that it was me running it, and that turned out to not be a problem at all. I had lots of referrals coming to me.
Speaker 2:But I think the challenge that I face is what you said, like how many clients can you manage at once, because it's a very it's a feast or famine business. So that's a financial challenge as well as a just operational management challenge. Publishing kind of works in waves and cycles and it seems like all the good proposals all come in on the same week and everybody seems to finish their manuscript on the same day, even though they're not supposed to. So how many clients I can manage at a time varies based on where the current ones that I have are in the cycle. So that's something that I'm always working on and looking for is how to do what I do more efficiently and faster and how to better coach authors how to create their proposal in a systematic and timely fashion. But it's hard because it's not like a widget, it's a work of art.
Speaker 1:There's so many variables at play. It sounds like you're kind of a contractor of a book. Yeah yeah, that's interesting. So, as an agent, how do you actually earn revenue? Are you paid based on the success of the book? Do you coach or do you have courses?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the primary bread and butter is selling books to publishers. So for the clients that I represent as their agent, I earn 15% of whatever the author takes in, and that's a pretty standard industry-based rate. So when the author is given, let's say, $200,000 book advance, I earn 15% of that. If they earn out that advance and they start to earn royalties, I earn 15% of that. The challenge is that those payments are paid out over a number of years. Even if they got half a million dollar advance, they usually paid that advance over two to three years, and that's also something that's changed. So, yeah, so it used to be sort of in the industry against the code of ethics to do anything above and beyond that in terms of, like coaching or courses, because it was rightfully so, seen that you know that that takes away from what you're doing representing the clients that you represent. But now that has changed.
Speaker 2:I'm a member of the American Association of Literary Agents, ala, and it's like a you know code of ethics organization and they've updated that language because it's really hard for agents to earn enough money to make a living, especially new agents, as they're building their lists and if they're being paid as authors are, you know, over a number of years. So I have done some coaching, I've done some courses. But the key is the only way to do that ethically is to only engage in that if the client comes to you for that. So if they know that you teach courses and they come to you and say I'd like to take one of your courses, not, I'd like you to represent my book, and then you say, well, I want you to take this class. So that's how. That's how the ALA deems that it's ethical.
Speaker 2:But yeah, a lot, of, a lot of literary agents have second jobs and you know, over the years it gets easier because, like this year, I year I'm earning commission from books that I sold last year and the year before and the year before that. So it's like, as you go, you have your stockpile of guaranteed revenue that you booked the year before and the year before that and the year before that. So it gets easier with time. But for the first couple of years you're only earning 15% of whatever little small pool of clients you have and of that, a quarter of their payment that's going to hit that year.
Speaker 1:It reminds me a bit of a songwriter, and you have these royalties based on the performance of a song, and you don't know how long that will last If you knock one out of the park, though that can be all you really need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely I know. I mean, it's, like you know, not dissimilar from artists, talent agents. Everybody's looking for their next Grammy winner.
Speaker 1:When you branched off on your own. How many years was it before you reached a level that made it more comfortable?
Speaker 2:You know it also shifts financially when you do go out on your own too, because you are able to keep that money yourself basically, whereas when you're at an agency, most agencies have a share, so you're taking a lower percent and that'll do Some pay salaries. They're all a little different, but I think for me definitely the first year it was the challenge and then is becoming easier. But I would say the bigger challenge too is also sometimes there are timeline shifts. So a book that's supposed to publish this year it doesn't happen often, but sometimes you know an author might have a death in the family or for some reason needs to be deferred, or they didn't finish the manuscript when they thought they would.
Speaker 2:So there are some of these variables where the payments get pushed forward, and so I think the question that I'm always asking and the agents that I'm friends with and talk to and that are my colleagues, is how do I also have whether it's coaching or courses some sort of offering that is more day-to-day that I can count on in case one of these bigger deals that I'm working on shifts? Because we all have the same goal, which is we want the book to be the best book that it can be, and it's a work of art, and sometimes the timelines around that shift, or something changes in the world and it needs to happen earlier or later. So you have to be a little bit flexible about that. That's the biggest challenge is the revenue is. Sometimes it's a gush, sometimes it's a drip.
Speaker 1:It's like you were saying feast or famine. So give us a behind the scenes idea of what it is like to be Jackie Ashton. You wake up in the morning. What does your email inbox look like? How many pitches are you receiving? How do you even filter through them? And then, how much of your time is dedicated toward moving your current projects forward?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I try to block off the first couple hours of the day. Of course I'll look at my email first thing and you know tend to any fire drills that that need to be dealt with but I really try to block out the first part of my day for any editing or manuscript reading or proposal editing that I might do for either current clients or current prospective clients that I'm considering. Because it's really easy to sort of get, you know, dragged around by the tail of the dog if I don't block that out in the morning and really do that sort of like Cal Newport, deep work and really giving it my best editorial morning brain. Once I've attended to the current books that are in process or being published, then the next priority is the pipeline who are the clients that I'm working with who are close to selling a book and what is the thing that I can do today to move that thing forward? And then I would say the end of the day is more like reading referrals emails.
Speaker 2:My email inbox does tend to look overwhelming. I always prioritize personal referrals, meaning referrals that come from other people in the book publishing industry or referrals that come from current clients or from friends of current clients. I always try to prioritize those. But I also get a lot of requests that come in from you know, somebody's grandmother or just something that is, and you know that takes time too, because if somebody that I know, I want to be kind and give them a reply, and hopefully not a too jaded one, that's like I don't know about that. It's just tough, because a lot of people want to write books and it's really a tough business.
Speaker 1:So if you're a first-time author, the idea of writing a book has to be for the benefit of the reader, but with zero expectation for how it might actually perform.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2:It's exactly it.
Speaker 2:And of course, you know, certainly there are people who write books that are simply an expression of are very ambitious and successful in their field, and so it's often daunting to them or confusing to them that someone might not want their book because they've been so successful at doing what they do.
Speaker 2:But a book is a completely different beast, right, it's a completely different product, and so that's. You know, part of my job is helping prospective clients and current clients understand that what you're creating when you're making a book is a very different thing. It's like almost like a different language, and I'm helping them translate what they do in their day-to-day into into the book world and into the book format. Because you're you're trying to take your, you know, your genius, your thing that you do that no one else can do, and communicate it in a way that someone who is sitting, you know, maybe in the dark with a flashlight, all alone, in a way that can keep them engaged and keep them interested and keep them turning the pages, and you're not there to explain it and you're not there to say, oh, but keep reading, because chapter three is where it really gets good, and think about how many times you grab a book and you read four pages and you put it down. So you're trying to avoid that.
Speaker 1:So what do you not have access to as a boutique literary agent? That you did when you were at the bigger agency, and then how do you access those resources when you need them?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. The agency where I was previously was also relatively small, so it's not significantly different. But the big New York agencies have benefits and salaries and then also the budget to buy software. So I don't have access to those things. But I think that the relationships that I've been able to build with people, just virtually and also face to face when I've gone to New York to meet with publishers, those are the people that I that I really lean into and lean on, and I think you know, the publishing industry is still a pretty opaque industry, but there's more information coming out, there's more access.
Speaker 2:So I just try as much as I can to stay connected to the people that I know well, who are really plugged in, and also to read everything I can about what's happening and, yeah, just to stay curious and ask a lot of questions.
Speaker 2:And sometimes there there aren't answers. You know I asked the question that you asked me about like what, what, how many copies does a book like XYZ sell? Or what made XYZ books so successful, and sometimes it's like I don't know. You know, how did you know a musician that nobody had ever heard of now have six Grammys and be performing at the Superbowl this weekend. It's like you know, sometimes something just takes off and you can't really put your finger on quite exactly what it is. So we're all trying to like catch the moon in book publishing. But I think that you know, no matter whether your book is a New York Times bestseller and you sell millions of copies, or you know you self-publish it and it sells 500 copies, I think that if the words that you put on the page are meaningful to you and they reach somebody else and change their life in some positive way, then it's worthwhile.
Speaker 1:What do you think the landscape is going to look like or evolve into in the next five to 10 years, given the rise of AI?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think it's such a huge challenge. I think that the world will always need good art and I think that AI is going to present a lot of challenges in terms of copyright issues and just the way that audiobooks are recorded. That's a big place where we're seeing AI infiltrate. But I think, just like music, I don't think the need for humanity in literature is going to change. Selling books is going to be increasingly difficult, I think, but book publishing is ripe for disruption, so it's not necessarily a bad thing, and I think that human authors the need for them, is not going away.
Speaker 1:Do you think there's ever the potential for, say, the middle 80%? So you've got the top 10% of authors who are bestsellers because they're famous or they just have a plugin some way, and then you have the first time authors who are at the bottom, like, is there any real room and potential for a middle section in there?
Speaker 2:I hope so. I really do. I think it's really a big challenge right now. As much as people in the industry want to see people have an opportunity to put their book into the world, if they're an unknown, the cards are really stacked against them. But I also think that disruption is a big part of our culture in this country and I think I would not be surprised to see surprising or unexpected disruption happen. I think the industry is really right for it and I think the people that work in the industry are also interested in that and trying to figure out a way to give people an opportunity to write their story and tell their story, no matter who they are.
Speaker 2:And self-publishing is a great option, I mean it's. It doesn't work for everyone because it requires a lot of hustle and a lot of effort, but if you have something important to say and you want to, you want to put it out there. I think the opportunity is there. But you may not get a half a million dollar book deal from Simon and Schuster or one of the big publishers, but you know it's so. The other thing is the success of your first book is important to publishers in terms of book two or book three, but it also might take a few tries.
Speaker 2:So it's also not a bad idea to self-publish a few books and sort of get your feet wet and start to figure out what you really want to talk about, what you want to say, or do it in articles or do it on your podcast, before you really try to put pen to paper in a way that you want to see published by a major publisher and distributed in a big way. It's like you know. You have to kind of realize that it takes skill and you're not going to hit a home run the first time you pick up a baseball bat. People have this like romantic notion about writing a book and there's some sort of like idea that we should all be good at it. I mean, many thought leaders have important things to say, but to be able to write it in a way that resonates with a wide audience, that's a hard thing to accomplish, and so for that reason, authors also sometimes work with ghostwriters who just translate their words into literature, because that's what they do.
Speaker 1:Is this something that you do?
Speaker 2:I've done this. Yes, I've ghostwritten a couple of books, and a lot of my clients do it, sometimes not even just for the skill but for the time. You know, I work with a lot of entrepreneurs and people who have full-time jobs. So writing a book is, you know, it's a big endeavor. So sometimes it's just about partnering with somebody who can take on that task of doing the research and doing, you know, all of the writing, while you're the person that's giving the ideas and the structure and scaffolding of the book. Michelle Obama had her book Ghostwritten. Barack Obama did not. I think he likes to tease her about that, but it's very common in nonfiction.
Speaker 1:As the ghostwriter, do you get credits as the author?
Speaker 2:Usually the sort of de facto acknowledgement is the author will thank the ghostwriter in the acknowledgements in the back section of the book. Sometimes ghostwriters will get written with on the cover or they'll get some other acknowledgement, but the acknowledgement section of the book is usually where that shows up.
Speaker 1:It's interesting how that is a regular part of publishing. To me it's very interesting. I know it's crazy, I know. I mean it makes sense when you explain it and when you really think about it, because you're pairing someone's skill level with someone's platform and then creating something together.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, I know it's crazy. You would assume that books are written by the authors. In most cases, it was written by them. It's almost like a translator. Yeah, they're taking the thoughts and the ideas and because I mean, the challenge with writing is, like you know, new writers, first-time writers they'll sit down and they'll write a story and it makes sense to them, but then they hand it to somebody else and they read it and they're like what you were aware and they leave out details because they're you know, they know them in their brain and they don't know that they need to actually spell it out word by word. So it's really challenging and humbling to try to tell a story that somebody, like I said, you know, in a in a dark lit room 3000 miles away, can fully understand and engage with.
Speaker 1:It's a real talent, right, so they don't get lost. Yeah, so in the time that you've been running Bookmark, what have you learned about business that you think anybody else who's listening in could really benefit from knowing?
Speaker 2:What advice would you give to somebody who wants to leave their full-time job and branch off and give it a go? I would say, first of all, go for it. I mean, obviously, obviously I caution that with you know, assuming that you have done all the required research and have some skill in order to facilitate that. But hire good people. I mean, whether it's just you know your accountant or freelancers build a good team around you. And I would also say, just always be looking at the bottom line, always be looking at you know.
Speaker 2:It's a business right, and I think one of the things that is challenging sometimes is in this kind of business you really become friends with people. You become friends with your clients. You really want to give them everything or how. That's how I feel A lot of agents have a reputation of just like closing the deal and then they disappear, and that's sort of what's necessary to keep your bottom line healthy. There's always sort of this tug of war between, like, the level of client service that I want to give people versus what I actually have available to keep the business afloat, and so it's helpful to just ask the question like what is the one thing that needs to happen to close this deal, to move this book forward, but also to be focused on the business as well as the relationship and also just have great relationships with your clients.
Speaker 2:Over-deliver for them when you can and set reasonable expectations.
Speaker 2:That's another thing. I think a big part of my job is setting reasonable expectations for prospective authors, because people come in and I understand the sort of romantic notion of getting a giant book deal and going on a world tour and I don't want to be Debbie Downer when I work with my clients but I also really try to set very realistic expectations for authors around how much money they might get, how much time they might get from their editor, what their book might ultimately do in the world without totally crushing their dreams. All good client management, I think, comes down to over-deliver on expectations, set an expectation and then over-deliver on it if you can. But it's impossible to do that if the expectations are completely disconnected from reality. We see a lot in this industry and it's sort of I don't want to dash people's dreams because there are those stories of books that just are totally unexpected hits. But it's a business, right, it's a business and the best books win and the best books sell and there usually aren't very many of them, and so you try again.
Speaker 1:I think having that transparency, as you were saying, and communicating through the expectations and keeping those expectations low is going to be setting somebody up for greater success than if people imagine that they're going to write a bestseller straight off the bat. Yeah, if you were to go back and have a conversation with yourself when you were in your early twenties, what life wisdom would you give yourself?
Speaker 2:Gosh, that's such a great question. I think I would say trust yourself. The only person who knows what you are meant to do in this world and what's going to be most rewarding for you is you, especially when you're younger. I think I spent so many years like looking around to ask, oh, should I do this? Like, is this what I should be doing? Or thinking about what people in my family did.
Speaker 2:Nobody in my family worked in book publishing or literature. I didn't even take English courses in college. It took me until I was in my thirties to figure out that the literary world was the place I was supposed to be. So I had to almost had to like go back to the kid that I was when I was nine years old and I would stay up till two in the morning reading because I couldn't put a book down. And now, looking back, it's like, of course this is what I do. I've always had my nose in a book and I've always loved language and words and foreign languages. You know just quotes and turns of phrases, quotes from movies, like. When I look back on my life, it's like this is clearly a love and a passion that I've always had, but I just didn't put it together until I was in my thirties.
Speaker 1:I think you're right. A lot of our passions start emerging when we're teens and most of us just put them on the back burner for a bit because we have to become adults, chase career, make money, and some of us let go of that person. But you held onto her, so good for you.
Speaker 2:No well, thanks, and I think sometimes, as an agent too, I try to do that when I can.
Speaker 2:Of like this person has no followers. I don't know if I can get them a deal, but I'm going to try because I really see something here and I believe in this writer and I believe in this author and sometimes we get lucky. Sometimes those books end up making it, and I think a lot most of the editors I know feel that way too, where we're all looking for that diamond in the rough and they're there it's. You know, it's just it is a bit of an uphill battle, but but yeah, to just remember that your art is meant to be put in the world, whether it's to a big audience or a small one, it just happens to be a challenge when you're talking about, like you know, the small, small, small percent that actually gets to work with a major publisher. But there's lots of other ways to go and there's like a path to get there eventually or not. But I would always say, tell your story somehow, some way, if you feel that that calling yeah, I love that, jackie.
Speaker 1:Thanks for enlightening us on the literary world. Jackie, thanks for enlightening us on the literary world. I often interact with others who have an expertise or story that they think the world could benefit from knowing, or maybe they just want to tell, and so I think that this episode will answer a lot of those unknowns for them and help point them in the right direction. So thanks for coming on, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me having me Today's key takeaways.
Speaker 1:A great book isn't just what excites you and your mom. It has to hook a much wider audience. If you want a book that sells, you need an idea that speaks to millions, not just the people who already know and love you. You don't have to tell every detail of your story. Focus on what truly matters Instead of covering everything. Choose an angle that's unique, surprising and truly different. Study the books in your space and ask yourself what can I say that nobody else can? If you had one shot to shout your message from the rooftops, what would you say? Now drill down, look at bestsellers in your category and ask what's everyone saying that I disagree with, or what's not being said at all? A strong book proposal doesn't need to be long. It needs to be undeniable. 30 to 50 pages is enough. Your editor should be nodding at every page, thinking this is fresh, this is compelling. This person is the one to write this book. Your overview is your book's elevator pitch. Make it unforgettable In just two to three pages. Answer why this book? Why me? Why now?
Speaker 1:Publishers don't just buy ideas. They invest in people who already have an audience coming to them for insight, whether that's through speaking engagements, a podcast, social media or another platform it all matters. Getting a book deal is just the beginning. The real success comes from how much effort you put into marketing it. The authors who hustle, who build relationships, who show up for their book those are the ones who win.
Speaker 1:Ideally, you've been talking about your book's topic for say, 10 years. The best books come from people who have been in conversation with their audience long before they ever typed the first sentence. If you want to write something truly needed, listen to the gaps, what's missing, what hasn't been said yet. The trends and timing are part skill, part luck. Some books hit at exactly the right moment, but you can't control that. What you can control is writing something that will still matter years from now.
Speaker 1:Traditional publishing moves at a glacial pace. Expect a two-year runway from deal to bookshelf. If you're in this for instant gratification, consider self-publishing. Big ideas don't mean much if they don't resonate with real people. You might have something world-changing to say, but can you say it in a way that makes someone stop, think and feel? If you're branching out on your own, be clear-eyed about expectations, set boundaries with your clients. Over-deliver when you can, but always, always, keep an eye on your bottom line. At the end of the day, only you know what you're truly meant to do. The world will have opinions, but the only one who can decide what's most rewarding for you is you. That's it for today. I release episodes once a week, so come back and check it out. Have a great day.
