How I Built My Small Business

John Kilcullen - The Rise of FOR DUMMIES and The Future of Publishing – Insights from the Creator of an Iconic Brand

• Season 1 • Episode 50

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John Kilcullen, the creator of the For Dummies brand and former chairman and CEO of IDG Books, shares his journey in building one of the world’s most iconic publishing series.

In this episode, John delves into the rise of For Dummies, his experience leading other renowned brands like Frommer's Travel and Cliff’s Notes, and his time as president and publisher of Billboard Magazine and The Hollywood Reporter.

A sought-after lecturer on entrepreneurship and innovation at institutions like Stanford, NYU, and Babson, John’s wisdom has been profiled in Forbes, The New York Times, and USA Today.

PART 1: The story behind For Dummies and how to build a lasting brand.

PART 2: Insights on the evolving future of publishing (starting at 43 minutes).

Closing: John’s invaluable advice for aspiring entrepreneurs, life wisdom, and actionable takeaways.

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Website: https://www.annemcginty.com/

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Anne McGinty:

Welcome to how I Built my Small Business. I'm Anne McGinty, your host, and today I have John Kilcullen in the studio sharing his insights on building an iconic brand, along with his thoughts on the future of publishing. John is the former chairman and CEO of IDG Books, where he became known as the creator of the For Dummies brand, along with other popular book series including Frommer's Travel and Cliff's Notes. John has also served as president and publisher of Billboard Magazine and the Hollywood Reporter. John's expertise has made him a sought-after guest lecturer on entrepreneurship and innovation at institutions including Babson, fordham, duke, the Naval Postgraduate School, nyu and Stanford. He has been profiled in Forbes, people, the New York Times and USA Today.

Anne McGinty:

I thought about splitting this episode into two, but instead of doing that, I'll just let you know that the first part is more on John's origin story, the rise of For Dummies and building an iconic brand, and, if you're listening in for John's insights on the future of publishing, that starts around 43 minutes and we finish up the episode with John's insights for aspiring entrepreneurs life wisdom for anyone, and the key takeaways are in the last few minutes. For more about John and his ventures, check out the links in this episode's description. Out the links in this episode's description. If you enjoyed today's interview, please hit the follow button on your favorite streaming platform and share it with a friend. Let's get started. Thank you to our listeners for being with us today. John, thanks so much for coming on the show.

John Kilcullen:

My pleasure.

Anne McGinty:

So I'd love to know a little bit more about your background. Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and your upbringing?

John Kilcullen:

Sure, I'm proud to say that I was born, raised and educated in the Bronx at a time when it was truly neighborhood friends, family. Everyone looked out for one another. Irish immigrant son, third youngest of eight, six sisters and an Irish mom I could see your facial expression. Yes, 10 of us in a three bedroom apartment one toilet, one faucet, one bathtub truly a tiny spot. Five sisters in one room, oldest on the couch, my brother and I in a bunk beds and my parents. So you learn very quickly how to deal with getting to dinner on time, otherwise you don't eat much and, as the youngest son, doing all the chores. But it was a time when Italian immigrant, irish immigrant, jewish immigrant, a very melting pot of neighborhoods where we to this day I'm still friends with my grandma's school neighborhood, high school buds. We get together, we have reunions, a special bond and growing up with an Irish mom who greeted you with hello, love, you know as her normal greeting of anyone, family or friends, and hardworking dad, truck driver, and you learn work ethic, you learn the values of sharing, you know your life in small space, together, growing up in that whole Catholic tradition and Jesuit tradition of service and compassion and mercy and understanding that there's a common good and there's other people besides you. So a lot of great lessons instilled early on.

John Kilcullen:

My siblings are my really good friends. We just came back from a reunion in Ireland to see my 95-year-old aunts and my cousins. And I grew up several summers working the land, so as a vineyard owner now in California, green Valley, russian River but growing up where my mom would say, okay, you, you and you get on a plane at JFK and you're going to stay with my brother, my two brothers and their families for like three months. And that was no parents, just you're gone. And so working in the bog and cocking hay and mating bulls and herding sheep and cows and shearing sheep and just participating and observing and being part of my mother's brother's lifestyle, to go back now and to see the field and the barns and we chased the sheep again and to relive those moments. A special upbringing with special family orientation, with a lot of values around others. You know your siblings and your elders and your friends and family and neighborhood folks. So it was a very interesting time.

Anne McGinty:

It sounds like it, and having 10 of you in a three bedroom apartment, I mean, did you guys get along all the time?

John Kilcullen:

We did, and a lot of laughter. In an Irish household, saturday and Sunday were what's called the sing song night. So I played the button accordion. My sister Peggy would sing she played the piano. My other sister, julie and Eileen they play the accordion and we would just have that fun family. My aunt and uncle would come over and join us. We all grew up under the value of family and family is everything and togetherness and sharing meals, and we were best buds going out. As we got older. We would go out to the beach and the bars and a lot of really good energy, a lot of good laughter, a lot of shared memories of just those times with immigrant parents, seeing how hard they work to make a better life for ourselves and how we all got along throughout that journey together.

Anne McGinty:

There's really something about the immigrant story, that hard work ethic, and you kind of don't really have another choice. You really have to work hard.

John Kilcullen:

Yeah, I mean my dad would say don't forget the signs Irish need not apply which he was confronted with, and he was a truck driver, so he worked really hard. He got up at 5.30 in the morning and got home at 7.30 at night and did that for 33 years and then he got colon cancer and two years later he was dead. So you realize, wow, you work all your life. And my mom would say I just want my kids to have a better life than I had.

Anne McGinty:

That's exactly what my dad said.

John Kilcullen:

You know that shared immigrant story, growing up with little but we had everything. Right, that's kind of the duality Like we grew up with not a lot but we had everything. We had love and neighborhood and friends and family and you know the Irish food was always a plenty. So it was always an interesting time to know when your parents were working so hard. Like I put myself through college because I had to. I worked nine to five as a day camp counselor with five to seven year old boys and then I would take the train to Manhattan. I was a doorman, elevator operator from midnight to eight and I get back on the train and repeat the cycle. So that's kind of my parents did it. That's what we knew Work hard.

Anne McGinty:

Yeah, yeah. So what got you interested in entering the publishing industry? It doesn't sound like either of your parents were in this space.

John Kilcullen:

Not at all. But you know, my dad was a big reader and he would always say you know, john, I solved the Irish problem and write your congressman. And he would read the Western people and the Irish echo and was always interested in what was happening back in the old country, as he would call it. I actually remember distinctly watching an ad it was a Jiffy ad and it was a boy, not unlike myself, on the top of a bunk bed. My brother and I did have bunk beds for a period of time and he was reading a book, had glasses on, and then his mom came in with a little snack, a PB&J snack, and it was the Jiffy. I'm like that kid, he's got glasses, he looks erudite and cool and smart and he's reading a book.

John Kilcullen:

I literally went out, I started to sign up for the book club and got all the Tom Sawyer and all the classics of the moment and day and went to school for communications. And I day and went to school for communications and I did a year at Madison Avenue as a media buyer intern and I was offered a job for a whopping $11,000. And I did have another Fordham grad who was in a search firm and he said well, we have this publishing sales traveler and publishing scout job. So it was either Madison Avenue at $11,000 or a company car and $14,000 to leave the Bronx, because I never I didn't live on campus, because I couldn't afford to. So left home July 23rd of 1981 and went to New England, which was my territory, to sell textbooks to professors that were smarter than me, knew more than me and often didn't want a book because they already had their notes and they were entrenched in their actual curriculum, and then to scout for authors. So that was how my journey with publishing started.

Anne McGinty:

So what did you learn from that selling journey? Because sales, I think, is something that nearly every entrepreneur needs to figure out at some point.

John Kilcullen:

It's interesting, I agree with you, the sales journey to do cold calling, literally in snow in Vermont and New Hampshire and Massachusetts and Rhode Island my four state territory literally in figurative cold calls. And I figured out some things. How do I get a professor to pay attention to me? He didn't want to see me and when I was presenting books for sampling for them to evaluate our textbook, the McGraw-Hill salesman behind me I was apprentice hall would have the used book card. We'd be buying the books that I was leaving off and sampling. Really crazy dynamic. So I found out when they got paid and I went to Dunkin' Donuts and I stapled my business card and I went into the teacher's lounge and I all knew they got paid, so better mood, and I all knew they would want to donate at some point with their coffee. And that's how I stood there and introduced myself and made some conversation which ultimately led to a permission to have, you know, potentially a presentation.

John Kilcullen:

The other issue was I couldn't get any sales in Vermont and I read the whole John Molloy book how to Dress for Success. I had my gray pinstripe suit, my white shirt, my red tie, my black wingtips and I was probably fine in Boston but in Vermont no sales. So I did sign an author, paul Culture, to write technical mathematics. And I said, paul, can you help me out? You know, I'm right out of college, I'm 22 years of age, I'm getting no traction here in Vermont. And he said, john, it's easy when we see you come and we run away, you're dressed like someone from the city who we have no empathy or interest in engaging with.

John Kilcullen:

Literally, I got it, I went out, I got the clot kickers, I got the corduroy pants, I got the jacket with the elbow patches, I had the plaid shirt. I flipped it right away. Sales went up and I learned a lot about contextual selling and understanding your audience and literally the cold calling and how you have to accept rejection and what do you do to prepare and really think about all of the nuances of sales. And yes, I would advocate understanding the belly-to-belly selling relationship, understanding how to have open-ended questions, how to prospect for information, how to determine need, then present product In that sequence. Don't reverse it present product and have no need and no assertion of budget or interest. So those are some of the life skills that came out of my first job.

Anne McGinty:

And after that first job you had to take several major steps, I assume, between that point and eventually creating the For Dummies series. What key steps stand out in your memory as really important parts?

John Kilcullen:

Interesting you say that because it's vivid in my memory which is I didn't like the sales job of four states, away from my family and friends, on my own, a small little basement apartment in a home in Malden, massachusetts. So I told the head of marketing. I said listen, I've been doing this now for about a year. This is in like October. I'm out of here in February. I just can't continue to be a seller in New England and not really digging this experience. He said whoa, whoa, whoa, he goes. Wait a second. You know, you seem to be, you know, a good fit and working hard. And we liked the reports you're signing authors. I said no, no, I am leaving this job in February and kismet vision, whatever you want to call it. I got an offer from the home office to run technology and software sales and marketing and literally I was back in New Jersey, englewood Cliffs, in February. So sometimes, like these little moments of your vision and your inner fire in your belly is like listen, this is not for me. So I got promoted. That was a stepping stone into learning about marketing and launching computer software and the early age of technical books, and so that became a strength of mine was the technology, software and book part of the process. And then I had a colleague who moved to Indiana and I worked for technology publishing in Indiana and then I came back to New York to work for what is now Random House and I was managing the largest customers came on at the time B Dalton and Walmart and I did the largest promotion in the history of Band and Double A Dell at that mart for Louis L'Amour and it was 675,000 books for one customer for one Father's Day promotion and we had 68% sell through. He passed away during the weekend of the promotion and everything was a collector's item. So just crazy stories about timing and seasonality and just making your own fortune and luck and having a vision to execute.

John Kilcullen:

So, all by way of saying, at this large company I always, coming back from my immigrant son roots, would be sitting around the first Tuesday and Wednesday of each month. You couldn't travel and they were going to present 90 new books and it's in this very large conference room and there might've been 30 plus people in the room and what I always witnessed was the editor and publisher claimed all the vision and prescience and smarts when the book worked and when the book didn't work, they blame the salespeople. And I'm sitting there saying what's wrong with this equation? The corner office, elitism, a feed snobbery. They know better.

John Kilcullen:

So I said I'm going to start my own company and I had that fire in their belly to say, hey, I really understand technology and technology information. So I went to what was then Random House and I learned later that it said, like John would always be a number two guy, but never a number one. So that stuck with me and I ended up moving to Silicon Valley in Northern California and worked for technology, research, media, magazine, training company. And I remember the person who hired me. He said listen, why don't you start your company in our nickel? So it was smart money, they had infrastructure, they had research, they had VC, they had magazines and media and training just to kind of an interesting, accidental, you know, entrepreneurial path to starting up the company.

Anne McGinty:

It's amazing, and I know you mentioned a couple of times luck, so do you believe in luck?

John Kilcullen:

Luck is where preparation meets, opportunity, that's what I always say, and I'm Irish, so we do have the gift of gab and we have a little bit of the Irish leprechaun charm. So I believe that there's a little bit of everything and making your own luck and listening carefully with an open mind and an open heart. I was leaving the Bronx to Silicon Valley and that's a leap and again doing so with not a big infrastructure of family and friends and support networks. You have to have confidence and you have to have this fire in the belly because I thought there was a better way to create a culture of innovation in the publishing world, which was long lead time. Still to this day there wasn't a good sensibility that these computer books were like Manhattan phone books. They were like people would buy by the pound, we used to say, and I thought there was a better way.

John Kilcullen:

And when I went out, actually I wasn't the CEO, I was VP of sales and marketing. Three weeks later the CEO went back to the magazine division and then he and the founder said okay, you're the general manager and publisher. You know you're the only guy here that's actually been in the book industry. Go figure it out. And I sat there and I could tell you. I remember like I've never published a book. I've never run a P and L Are they crazy? And there were five of us and all of a sudden there were like two of us, so it was a. It was a very scary moment. It was one that was like three weeks into my relocation to Northern California and I'm like, oh my God like what are we doing here?

John Kilcullen:

Why are they doing this? So, with that Darwinian survival, bronx metal, whatever you want to describe it, it was like I was not going to go back to the Bronx with my head between my tail and say I failed, so I was going to take every opportunity and then make the best of it.

Anne McGinty:

Yeah, you were given an opportunity. You're going to do your best and run with it. That's amazing. So you're at this new publishing house. They've promoted you. How did the idea for the For Dummies series really percolate Like? Where did that idea, the branding and the concept come from? You said you, you noticed that there was a need for it, but you must acknowledge that for dummies is like a pretty big play.

John Kilcullen:

Well, as a overview, everyone claims the agent, the author, the editor in chief, his uncle, the competitors all claim that they had the idea right and that's fine. But I was the only person that that was there from the beginning through 11 and a half years to make it work. And ultimately, I remember having dinner with publishing friends and a conversation was related to me about a customer and it's like hey, I just got this MS-DOS thing and I've got to learn it. Can you give me a book for me? You know basic like DOS, dos for dummies. Well, learn it. Can you give me a book for me? You know basic like Das, das for Dummies? Well, that was in 87, launched a company in 90, march of 90, launched the book having $1.5 million and did a great job of like, investing that down to 300,000. And so this was a book born of desperation, of carpe diem. That was the dynamic of like I can't lose this precious capital that I've been given as a GM. And I had been to a conference and I remember hearing Dan Gookin speak and so, oh, he's got humor, he's got an interesting way of explaining things, and at the time that was a situation where we were late to market. The new version had already been out. So we had a 10 corporate values at IDG and one of them was you know, have a let's try it attitude, sign them up. The author and editor did a really good job. That really had a great chemistry and all hats off to them.

John Kilcullen:

But the cover was gonna be white and a cartoon and I read an article in Forbes magazine about how car manufacturers use color to engage and influence prospects. So red is indeed a very seductive, attention-getting color in terms of ticketed cars on a highway. At the time my Apple, macintosh and Apple books were all in muddy brown. Well, brown induces rejection. So I scrapped my whole packaging of the Apple computer book line, went to a clean white sales rose and then yellow. So scrap the white cover with the cartoon. Yellow cover. Tension getting color. The protest sign was kind of I ripped off Apple a reference for the rest of us instead of a computer for the rest of us tilted the protest sign and because my educational background had a blackboard and chalk-like lettering and it was DOS for dummies, a reference for the rest of us.

John Kilcullen:

And that decision to scrap the cover and work with a new designer who did a fantastic job, build. What became the point product and then the brand. The identity was attention-getting, you couldn't miss it. And dummies became a term of endearment You're smart but you're being made to feel dumb with the technical babble. And then, when we went into other categories financial babble et cetera and because I'd always been in the trenches selling, you want to make sure you're presenting.

John Kilcullen:

So I took a cover to the largest bookstore in America, Walden Books at the time, and I went to get the big order. And I got two orders get out and stay out, To your point, right, you're going to insult my customers. They're going to bring it all back. It'll be returned. It's not going to be a nightmare I want to deal with. So get out and stay out. So went door to door.

John Kilcullen:

I remember Crown picked it up, dalton picked it up and I just saw that they were responding to this offbeat, left of center, unconventional, contrarian approach to this title and I didn't have a lot of confidence in terms of it being a massive seller. I printed 7,500 copies for a global print run. That's okay. It's not a healthy number that you have, you know, supreme confidence. So I didn't see what everyone later saw when they read the books and enjoyed the books and got the humor, but even little things, like I love David Letterman, the top 10. So I put the top 10 in there. So that was something where memorable right, my educational textbook publishing days. You know marginal notes of the icons, the little bomb and the, the bullseye and the tips and the tricks. So there's a lot of interesting moments and it was a great collaborative experience Again authors, editors, great salespeople.

Anne McGinty:

We really had that little publisher who could and what was the moment when you realized that this was going to be more than just a little publisher who put out a book that could it sold out its first print.

John Kilcullen:

It was now November and it's Christmas time and it wasn't even Black Friday, but it was really heating up in terms of foot traffic. It blew out, had to get printers rolling. It blew out again and I got the sense okay, I'm down to my last 300,000 from a 1.5 startup capital. And so what I knew was when the demand from customers really said you've got something here, and the reorders came in and then we expanded distribution and there was a real buzz that there was something really interesting. It went to the top of the Publishers Weekly bestseller list. It got a lot of attention. So I'm like, okay, what's next? Okay, pcs got it. That's natural. Windows big market. I'm like, okay, the Apple world, right. Well, my employees at the time were like, no, no, john, you don't get it.

John Kilcullen:

The value in this series of books is that it's alliteration. So if you're gonna do Macs, it should be Macs for meatheads and Macs for morons. And I'm like, no, no, no, it's about the dummies brand. Because I had been on Madison Avenue, because I had studied branding and advertising and how to induce people to buy and what are the cues and the signals. I'm like you know, my gut tells me, and what I know to be the case about branding is you're smart, being made to feel dumb for dummy scales, so finding people that could explain and had a sense of humor.

John Kilcullen:

And then in 1994, I violated the parent company's corporate values and I went into business because we're supposed to be a company dedicated to our mission of pursuing information services on technology. So now I'm doing personal finance. But I had employees and actors go to outside Madison Square Garden on 8th Avenue, the large post office there with dummies, figures and yellow high top Converse and got on TV and CNBC and it took off from there. And so, interesting enough, the CFO and for anybody who's looking at you know ideas in business you have to have a good financial partner and at the time the CFO was totally against books. It doesn't carry advertising, there's no subscription, it has full return privileges, so if it doesn't work it comes right back. So you have contra revenue and a guy named Bill Murphy we heard it at board meetings said like I'm going to starve this for capital and I'm going to try to shut it down as quickly as possible because it's going to dilute our ESOP.

John Kilcullen:

The founder of the book company and I was one of four people. As a founding member, he had a great line. He goes guess what we're going to put in every book first page the publisher would like to thank Bill Murphy for without whom this book would not be possible. True story. So maybe a year later I finally get a call from Bill Murphy. Never met him. And he goes uh, but it's Bill Murphy. I said, hey, bill, yeah, I know, I know you, have we ever met? No, no, we've not. I've not been back to Boston. I'm out here in California.

John Kilcullen:

Well, you're going to take my name out of the book. I'm like, no, why? We heard that you didn't believe in the company. We heard that you wanted to underfund it. So we're going to keep it in there. And then, as soon as we turn a penny of profit, we're going to keep the line in, take out your name, cfo and put in the Uber founder, pat McGovern. And that's what we did 17 months later when we turned a penny of profit. But I bring it up when we broke into business, because then all of a sudden I'm getting mem, good news memos from Bill. You should do mutual funds for dummies and taxes for dummies and you should do financial planning for dummies. So you have to get that financial partner to really, in our case, being a respectful rebel with a sense of humor and approve it to you attitude. I was like, yeah, we're going to prove it to you, bill, and we'll take your name out once we start turning profit.

Anne McGinty:

At this point. How many different versions of for dummies do you have?

John Kilcullen:

As of today. Yeah Well, I took the company, public sold it. John Wiley is the publisher of Record and there's over 3,000 titles, oh my gosh, and over a quarter million sold and 2 billion in retail sales and going abroad. We're able to do local like Aussie Rules or rugby. That were able to do local like Aussie rules or rugby. But a couple of thoughts.

John Kilcullen:

As it started to scale, I kept asking customers, which I was off to do what's next? Where do you see a market? Where is there a hidden need? And they're like God, you're doing so much I could. I don't know, but for God's sake, you're not gonna do sex. I'm like good one, I like that smart.

John Kilcullen:

So our publisher in Chicago, kathy Welting, reached out to the agent of Dr Ruth. We needed someone who was credible, had a sensibility of explaining things in a very commonplace way. So she calls my office and I always had a habit of trying to anticipate who was calling and I was like John. I'm like, oh, dr Ruth, john, how did you know I was calling? I said I just like to know who's calling. I don't do it, sean, why not Dr Ruth? You're the perfect person. You understand the audience, you've got a great domain expertise. You make sex and sexual literacy really easy to understand. I don't do it. I don't write for dummies, I write for smart people, but I just want to let no-transcript in various markets for whatever reason. So she spoke fluent French. So we sent her to Paris. Even though we're going to the land of love, they're like we don't need that, like we don't need sex for dummies, and our publishing partner put a condom in the inside back cover with an arrow this way up. So there's a whole funny approach.

John Kilcullen:

Sales took off. She was a great spokesperson. What a wonderful personality and she had a great way of explaining whether it was financial literacy or technical literacy or sexual literacy. That was the essence of the brand and I knew that from my Madison Avenue days and said, ok, we can scale this. And we had great margins. We had a great team. We were able to find, for instance, gary McCord. He was fired from CBS as the master's analyst golf analyst because he said, and I quote the greens are as slick as wax bikinis. And I'm like, oh, that's my guy. So Gary McCord says, oh, I know why I need to do this book, because I'm the technical golf advisor on Tin Cup and Don Johnson and Kevin Costner don't know how to hold a club the etiquette. And so he did it. Great guy had a lot of fun with him and he got Kevin Costner to write the foreword to the book.

John Kilcullen:

We allowed each publisher to kind of translate this. So in France it was Poilé Nul, which is loosely an old TV show for zeros, and then in China it was Ding and Dong Lauren. So you know, we tried our best to keep the sense of humor, keep the fidelity of the brand, the packaging. Licensing was a big part of it, so that helped. Licensing was a big part of it, so that helped. We did classical music, dum-dum-dum-dum, you know we did a lot of interesting things.

Anne McGinty:

And over that time I mean 3,000 titles. You may not have had a touch on every single one, but of the ones that you did, which experts to you just were standouts Like? What interactions did you have with some of these co-authors, I guess Is that what they were?

John Kilcullen:

Well, no. So they were all authors, right. So the publisher is providing the advanced, the royalties, the infrastructure. We would obviously keep the packaging. So, since it was our idea, we would control the look and feel and the packaging, the words. The manuscript would be a collaboration between the author and sometimes a co-author, but the author and our editor. So we had the editorial guidelines, we had the brand guidelines, we built a brand packaging and was like this is our brand, this is our series, we'd like you to contribute to it.

John Kilcullen:

Of course, a lot of people raised their hands, go like, wow, I can make money here. This is great. What we'd always say is an idea is not a manuscript, a manuscript is not a book, a book is not a series and a series is not a brand. Manuscript A manuscript is not a book, a book is not a series and a series is not a brand. So I have to explain to people like this is what we do, this is what we're really good at. And so I would say, playing basketball on California street with Eric Tyson and then signing him up to do personal finance for dummies and having him bring Charles Schwab, that was incredible.

John Kilcullen:

Hearing Dan Gukin speak, having him sign up for dots for dummies and having a great sensibility. But the related Dots for Dummies story is we in our parent company had these technology conferences and I was with Bill Gates and an afterglow event. It's nine o'clock, the whole program for the day was over and I said, bill, what do you think of Dots for Dummies? And only Bill Gates with those glasses and squinty eyes. He goes. I think it's an exercise in self-flagellation. So I'm like did he say caning or farting?

John Kilcullen:

But I know whatever he said, it was not a good thing. So it was a memorable moment to be safe. And here's the interesting take on that A year later, microsoft called me to do the manual for the latest version of DOS, which we turned into a great profitable business. And they always said, john, like we're really good at the tip of the pyramid Early adopters, cios, ctos, gearheads, geeks you're really good at the base of the pyramid the user, the mass market, the people who are smart but being made to feel dumb.

Anne McGinty:

And that's who you're writing for.

John Kilcullen:

Yep, so those are memorable. Dr Ruth, I mentioned, was memorable. Gary McCord was memorable. I remember Stephanie Seymour who did Beauty Secrets for Dummies and she said, john, you can't tilt my photo Like that's my smile, that's my brand. You can't like tilt, I said, but that's our brand, that's what we do. And I had dinner with her in Chicago was memorable. There was both, you know, pushback. There was a culture of collaboration, a culture of invention and really working together so that it was the right expression for that particular topic. The essence is let's keep it, you know, really to a reference, which means you don't have to read it cover to cover. You have a problem? You need a solution. You can go to the table, context or the index. You can zero in exactly on what you lead, and that's how we compartmentalize the whole journey was you don't have to read it cover to cover.

Anne McGinty:

It's like user interface just made it simple to apply. Yeah, so where in your journey did the Hollywood Reporter and Billboard come into play? Was this pre-Dummies or post? So?

John Kilcullen:

post. We took the company public in July 98. We sold it during 9-11, which was no easy feat and took about a year off. And then was introduced by a friend of mine from the Bronx who actually was at Esquire magazine and said you should talk to the folks that are looking for a champion to run the music, radio and literary group. So I became a publisher billboard and ran the bookseller in London and Kirkus reviews and got into the magazine business subscriptions and advertising. But it was still about brand. It was 113 year old brand at the time. So we launched Billboard Live in Japan. So it wasn't about the expression of a magazine printed or about a website. It was a mobile application and it was a supper club we launched with Steely Dan and that was one way to think about branding. Right, you've got this platform called a magazine. But is that really the brand? Now the brand is you chart success. The billboard charts to this day are the milestones for achievement. So charting success, it's like Nike, right, competitive spirit, apple, think different, disney, wholesome entertainment, billboard charting success.

John Kilcullen:

I had done the startup with the four dummies, idg Books Worldwide, and now this is a turnaround Peer-to-peer file sharing or peer-to-peer stealing. That was totally taking the music industry apart. So I had to figure out how to do a turnaround and then I joined the global executive committee at Nielsen and they said, okay, you've got to take on Hollywood Reporter. I at Nielsen and they said, okay, you've got to take on Hollywood Porter. I said, well, I've turned around the music and literary group. I don't want to leave it.

John Kilcullen:

It's really a point of pride. They said, okay, you can keep it, but you have to take on the Hollywood Porter, which means you have to live in Los Angeles. I said, okay, but I'm here in New York, life to kids and, like no-transcript, he didn't know who I was. I get a phone call in Paris at the airport. I'm heading my way back to New York JFK and he's F-bombing me because we had just reported on a deal and the terms of the deal, which at the Confin Festival. That's a lot of wheeling and dealing and who's buying rights and who sees a vision behind this property or not. And I just said this is what we do we report on what we believe to be the truth.

John Kilcullen:

And he goes no, you can't do that F-bombing me in Paris, literally in the security line. I got into JFK F-bombing me again, JFK F-bombing me again. So it was an interesting experience where, journalistically, you had to opine and comment and analyze and review on the industry, the people, the moves, the success of a TV show or a movie. You're going to take a lot of heat and so that was a whole different challenge than what I had heretofore learned about. So, but a lot of great people I met along the way.

John Kilcullen:

I remember meeting John Travolta, Jody Foster really nice people. I spent three hours with Helen Mirren at one of the Oscar parties. I remember John Travolta and George Clooney said they never met each other. So before video was a thing or a podcast to follow your journalistic instincts about what should be written about and what should be covered and, like the music industry, was peer-to-peer file sharing. And then all of a sudden, Bittorrent came along and it was stealing the movies and having those available. In fact, we covered one story where the FedEx operator who was taking the dailies they were actually replicating it in the FedEx truck. So it was out even before it hit LA. So there's a lot of interesting stories around the crazy world of Hollywood.

Anne McGinty:

Shifting into working around the Hollywood scene and LA and entertainment. Did you like that?

John Kilcullen:

You know, it was always about putting the suit on, or actually the tuxedo, and going to all of these award shows. And as much as I learned from cold calling in my first job in New England, you have to introduce yourself to people, but I always found that it was friend or foe. People wanted to be close to the journalistic side, but they also knew there was two sides to the objective reporting and then, of course, on the commercial side, what my commercial had on advertising and subscription. So they always want to hold you hostage to saying we're going to, you know, threaten, pull ads. Well, you got to pull ads because the journey of a 70 plus year old brand or 113 plus year old brand is we're going to be here, no matter what. You know, if you want to put me in the velvet box because you don't like stories that are being written or you didn't get the top spot in the charts, it is what it is Like. Our readers will appreciate the objectivity, and so there were certain moments it was fun, like meeting Eddie Vedder super nice guy.

John Kilcullen:

The movie Into the Wild, the true story about the student who left Georgia, burned his money. I ran the Hollywood Reporter and Billboard Film, tv and Music Conference and with my team, and he was wonderful. He was so happy that we packaged the CD on the front cover of the magazine. But Sean Penn, who lived right in Mill Valley not a nice guy completely dismissive and Eddie was super cool and they both took their ashtrays and their cigarettes and went in the Beverly Hilton Hotel to do the interview smoking, which was not allowed. And I asked them how they met and Eddie said we met at the bottom of a dungeon bar and just smoked all night and talked about what the musical experience would be like for this particular journey, and so that was kind of cool and memorable.

John Kilcullen:

A lot of different people that you meet, like Gloria Estefan. Now that was more on the music side, but after our Billboard Latin Music TV award show on Telemundo went to her club for the after party and she had a very VIP upper level. So my wife and I hung out with Gloria and Emilio and she said I love standing up here looking down at everyone dancing. You know my major was in psychology and we all know the story. She broke her back and the bus turned over and she's like I just want to see how people react with one another, how they dance, how they groove, you know. Are they married? Are they, you know, flirting and having a shot of 151 rum and talking to Gloria and feeling the humanity of her as a normal person. The paparazzi are always after me and now I get the chance to look at the folks and see what they're all about, anonymous as they may be dancing on the dance floor. That was super cool.

Anne McGinty:

I've always really wondered about what that must be like for someone like, say, taylor Swift or Elvis, the Beatles, you know, just to have everybody put you on a pedestal like that. Like how do you not have ego?

John Kilcullen:

Yeah, it's interesting. They all came through the halls of Billboard Taylor is this young gangly artist moving from Pennsylvania down to Nashville and they had a dream, they had a vision. But to your question can't be easy. You could see the look of strain on people's faces. You know when the stories are being written fairly or unfairly, true or not true about how that deals with their personal life. It's a very, very difficult ecosystem unless music or entertainment. You have to have a strong will, a strong support structure. You have to keep looking forward and you can't look in the rear view mirror. You have to have strong self-confidence that you're pursuing the right path, independent of what the naysayers and this was before TMZ and social heavy and all the craziness that goes on nowadays- so for you, with the Hollywood Reporter and Billboard, and for Dummies and everything you did to get up to that point, what were the hardest parts?

Anne McGinty:

Like? What parts made you just want to rip your hair out?

John Kilcullen:

In the startup. One of the toughest situations was we had launched our company with commission rec groups in the United States and I threw a party and all the reps and the heads of these regional commission groups, these sales teams, drank the champagne, were ready to come to the sales conference the next day. And I got a phone call at 6am in the morning, after I just left them at 11 o'clock at night and they're like, one by one, by one, we've talked about the fact that IDG is launching this book company that you run, but Simon Schuster and Macmillan, we represent them as commission reps and they gave us a call and said we can't handle you. So I lost my entire national sales force that morning at 6 am after sharing toast of future success the night before. And that was a low point because now I have no sales force and I'm launching a product line and I have a team that looks up to me and I have a parent company that's wanting to know what's going on. So what I told them at the time, as desperately horrible as that felt, I said you're going to regret this decision. I'm telling you that's a big company, I'm a small company. They're established, I'm not. They're going to cut ties with you at some point. They're going to take it in-house, but you watch us, we're going to be a rocket ship.

John Kilcullen:

And then 17, 18, 19 months later they did the same thing. They took all of those sales reps jobs in-house and they cut out all those commission reps. And then I got all this hope to come back and I'm like, no, we're on. So that was tough. Losing your national sales force at a launch party, thinking that there was, you know, genuine kindred spirits and commitment, and then hours later they bow to the big, fearful, large publisher who worries about our entrance. So that was tough. I would also say what's always tough is when you have anybody who doesn't see their potential, want to realize their potential and doesn't really want to do the work and doesn't believe they need to do the work, to motivate and to manage either up or out Never easy. If you have a heart, it's hard to do a reduction in force. If you have a heart, it's hard to let people go. It's always tough.

Anne McGinty:

And when these things happened that you'd never encountered before and maybe they really set you back, was there anybody that you turned to at those times to just seek some guidance, like did you have any mentors in this journey?

John Kilcullen:

Great. You know, that's a wonderful question. And there were certain people, like I remember Pat McGovern, who was the founder of International Data Group, who had the vision that their books would be a key part of the commercial process of learning about technology. And I would ask him a question and I would say I want to build a warehouse, we need to improve our margins and we can build a warehouse. And so now it's like Pat, I'm just looking for your opinion. He goes John, you asked me you're the product champion, you're the domain expert, you're in the market, you know the answer, you make the decision. So, even though he didn't give me an answer, he gave me an answer Follow your gut, stay close to the trends in the marketplace, know that you've done your homework. I trust in you.

John Kilcullen:

So Pat McGovern, I say, was quite the visionary leader of this what became a billion dollar company. So he was always someone that I would turn to, and then there'd be just you know our family, you know talking to people in my family who run businesses or sports coaches in college and just like, what's it like, you know, with managing people and how do you deal with? You know these dynamics in the marketplace? Idg was a special ecosystem because CEO colleagues or parent company executives or founders, there was always this collegial respect, like I'm going to ask a question because I've never done this before and I'm going to respect that you've done parallel things before, not in my space and to this day I'm still friends with those folks.

Anne McGinty:

It's a beautiful thing that really is. If you were to, let's say, for Dummies wasn't out and it's, you know, 2024 and you were to do this all over again, would you change anything about your approach, given the digital landscape and how publishing has changed in the recent years?

John Kilcullen:

Indeed, I've been executive chairman of Fast Pencil, I have counseled authors and I'll say today, the only thing that's certain is that there's a producer and a consumer and everything else retail, wholesale, publisher, printer is all part of the kind of middle and I would go direct to the customer. I would get their email name, I would get their mobile number, I would build a relationship directly. If you look at the wine industry through COVID, if you had a direct-to-consumer D2C business, you were able to be insulated from all of the wholesale retail closures. So, whether it's that industry or publishing, I would say build your expertise directly with your readers and your customers. Use all the available platforms, whether it's KDP at Amazon, they'll create the A-plus page or you'll create the A-plus page. You can do some AMS ads. They'll print it for you, they'll ship it for you, they'll build it for you.

John Kilcullen:

You don't need a small, medium or large-size publisher. There's a point of pride and there's some infrastructure turnkey nature to that, some infrastructure turnkey nature to that. But to control margins and control quality, control, time to market, to manage customers directly, to learn what they want next, to listen to them, to ask them questions and to have that. Maybe that the book is just a point product for a class or a workshop or a speaking engagement or a PDF download or a lesson plan, all of which you can do directly by managing the customer directly. If you go to a publisher, then they have the relationship with the customer and the resellers, so you're cut out from that direct link.

Anne McGinty:

So I want to make sure that I understand clearly, though it sounds like you're suggesting that traditional publishing is not necessarily the go-to.

John Kilcullen:

If you're an established author, you'll have, typically, a literary agent. They'll have a relationship with the editor, the acquiring editor, and that's a formula that works. You typically get an advance. You may never see a royalty, but you have the prestige of a Knopf or name Scholastic in the juvenile space. You'll get the right fit. So there's a great feeling that most authors, aspiring authors, don't get an agent because the agent doesn't see that they're going to bring a big paycheck, or the agent doesn't believe in their story, or the agent doesn't like their platform, and that could be said for the commissioning or acquiring editor. They're going to ask you a few questions what's your Facebook, instagram, tiktok, linkedin audience? How sticky and how often are you posting? What is that engagement? What are the numbers? So that'll be the first question.

John Kilcullen:

If you don't have that, you may have a passionate, differentiated story. That's not really a good opener. The next thing is going to be is you know, maybe you as author have to do all the work. You may need to have to pay them. You may have to take no advance. You may have to take a little royalties. You may just get turned down. So the author doesn't have the leverage, and I'm talking about not big time authors or previously published authors. I'm talking about anyone who's an entrepreneur, a C-level executive. There are more publishers will say pay me and we'll do the book for you.

John Kilcullen:

So that's a whole new model that's been in place for actually over 10 years. But that's Like ghostwriting. You pay for a ghostwriter, you have interviews, you have it put together, you hope it weaves together your story and it's written by a third party writer, and then it's packaged by a designer and then you're in market with a book. But that's an expensive process and then you still have to market and promote and build all the social media platforms and do all it yourself. But I would still argue it's a better prescription moving forward, given we're in an industry of consolidation. Amazon is the lion's share of the business. Local bookstores are very hard to get to and you can get to them as a local author. But then what about Tata Cover in Denver? And what about Shakespeare in New York? How do you get to market there? So I would say build your audience, build your story, understand how to use a platform like a self-publishing platform like KDP, or even the large publishers have self-publishing platforms and grassroots. Build it yourself, own the customer. Own your IP. Own the copyright.

Anne McGinty:

This is like kind of mind blowing to me, you know, just because historically I feel like traditional publishing was kind of like the gold star, but if all it's doing is giving you the cred and you're doing all the work anyway, why not keep the lion's share?

John Kilcullen:

I mean you'll keep 70% at KDP, Amazon, they'll keep 30. You're lucky to get 10 to 15% royalties on a traditional author publisher deal. And what I always said to my authors I would say author share equals royalties times copy sold. What I could influence is author share. What I can't influence is a word that's not in this equation, which is advance. I'm not going to write a big advance that's really against future royalties earned. So I can influence units sold.

John Kilcullen:

That's why you want to sign with me. You should be worried about author share. So today's world author share would be if I get 70% versus 10 or 15, and I control the customer and I control the cash and I control the quality and I can revise the book on the fly and I can do that book right away and I don't have to wait for 18 months to get in the traditional publishing cycle. I think there's a lot of benefits not right for everybody, but then a lot of benefits for going direct to the customer or reader. But do the book for you, Tell your story for you, your kids, your family, your audience, your customers. That journey, that passion, is something that is personal and so it's not about the commercial economic gains is what I would argue. It's about the fulfillment of that dream.

Anne McGinty:

It's like what we were talking about before we went live on this, just being a bit more heart centered with the approach.

John Kilcullen:

So I just have a couple more questions, one of which is what advice would you give to anyone that is an aspiring entrepreneur? Jack Welch would always say the only prescription for success is your livelihood is controlled by customers, and I learned from being a salesman for most of my career, whether I'm selling ideas or going public, and selling to investors is get in the marketplace, stay in the marketplace. The answers are in the marketplace. Don't surround yourself with yes people and an entourage. Know your competitor, know your customer, understand your cost structure, the three C's. But ultimately it's going to be about do you have an instinct and a fire in the belly that that you want to listen to that inner beat of that inner drum to say I believe there's a gap, I believe I can tell a better story, I believe this story will find its audience.

John Kilcullen:

I believe personally in doing this. It's a labor of love, but the answers are in the market. Stay close to the market. That's super important. Then build a virtual team, and that virtual team may be outsourcing, creative or whatever business that you're in, that you can have fractional workers. I remember Mick Jagger always saying like this is the only business where we can create 375 million and we all get together for 12 to 18 months and then we all disband, right. So surround yourself with positive people. Surround yourself with people who really are going to encourage and listen. Judgmental critical snipers are really going to tear the image of IDG. It's going to be something that's really really not a good look, and I'm like when someone tells me no, I'm like yeah, no.

John Kilcullen:

I got something here but there'll be naysayers, there'll be the corporate saboteurs, there'll be the folks that don't have the guts to do what you're doing and they'll always have a reason to say here's the downside risk and there's always downside risk. But follow your gut. Surround yourself with positive people, stay in the market, try to be the lowest cost provider at whatever you do. Make sure everything's negotiable and there's an opportunity for you to build something virtually and directly with customers. And just to make sure you do, you know self-care is healthcare like. Do the work, and the work may be self-worth and self-praise and self-confidence. It may be working out. And who do you surround yourself with? Where's your fitness? Where's your mind, body, spirit, alignment and and you know a book, confessions of an ad man, david Ogilvie. I always remember, higher to your weakness, you don't know it all and you don't know what. You don't know right. And there's a great book called the Hard Thing About the Hard Things. Really, understand it's hard, it's tough work.

John Kilcullen:

My niece has a hemp-based health company called Enact. You know it's an act of kindness, enact, and she's doing really well hustling, bustling, getting angels, getting investors. She worked at Under Armour, she worked at Prana, she's been in the global sustainability sourcing, she goes. I have a better way. I believe that the sustainable, organic, hemp-based composition of this town is really going to work and she's doing it. She's making it work. And here's an interesting thing A friend from the Bronx who's an inventor is investing in the company, and so the Bronx roots are strong and vibrant and there's so much love and support. Growing up in a community, wherever you are In our case it was you know, immigrant sons and daughters really coming together to really support and help each other.

Anne McGinty:

What you're saying about surrounding yourself with positive people is a really big part I know of my own journey too. It makes such a difference If you've got someone who says, no, you can do it. Just believe it, you can do it. Versus someone else just like, why would you do that? You're going to compete against all the big guys. You're never going to be able to do anything Right. So it's just that energy.

John Kilcullen:

That's right. What was it about your podcasting road, less travel that you followed to say I want to do this. I want to establish my voice and my audience my way.

Anne McGinty:

So, and my audience my way. So you know that eventually I will write a book, right? Okay, that's been sort of put on the back burner because once I realized I can start sharing some knowledge with people immediately by doing this podcast, like let's go with that. But the real spark was honestly wanting to show my kids that you should find something that challenges you, where you're constantly learning, connecting with people, like really dropping down into your heart and just enjoying the process and not being necessarily so goal oriented and focused all the time. I get it in certain circumstances, but for this one I just needed them to see that the process is so enjoyable and that I can do hard things.

John Kilcullen:

Yeah, it's a beautiful thing and what a great role model. And they're listening and they're watching and they're observing and they'll embrace that into their own DNA. I believe it. I see my four young men. But what I say to everybody to your earlier question is like, dare to be different, take the road less traveled, understand that failure precedes success. Like that. That Das for Dummies was the third book that really, really resonated. And if you think about Led Zeppelin and Bruce, their albums were the third albums before they really kicked it into high gear. And understand that you don't have all the answers, you don't know what you don't know, and be open-minded to listening and learning and Carpe Diem, you know, have that sense of urgency.

Anne McGinty:

So this? It feels like innate optimism. Is this something that you've always had?

John Kilcullen:

I've been called toxically positive. I've been called captain optimistic. I've been always high energy, high motor, probably rose colored glasses, maybe my upbringing like we came from humble beginnings and to see the good in people and to see that there is a possibility to do fun, good things. I've always had that hyper energy of making people laugh and wanting to do things that would uplift versus tear down, and so I think that's just part of how I grew up. You build people up, you don't tear them down.

Anne McGinty:

So my final question this is one that I ask everybody is if you could just go back and have, say, dinner with yourself, your younger self, and share some stories from your journey to prepare yourself for what is about to come, or to share some life wisdom that you've gained. What would you tell yourself?

John Kilcullen:

Great question I would think about this is heavy because maybe it's the California side of my journey. Is this whole notion of mind, body, spirit important to get that alignment right, important to understand that you have to in a very positive way and not an egotistical or narcissistic way. It's like have that self-praise and self-worth and self-talk that's positive and upbeat and really restorative and supportive right. So you got to get that mind and that body. You know, when I was having a tough time in publishing, getting stressed out what are you doing in your fitness, like self-care, is healthcare right? And spirit, like what's your spirit? What's your faith?

John Kilcullen:

Entrepreneurs, by definition, have faith. They may be agnostic, they may be atheists, but you have faith. You believe you can build and create something that's sustainable, that you're going to fight the good fight to do that. So that mind-body-spirit conversation I think is important. Also, make sure you're filling your mind and were inspiring and fill you up with really great insights and knowledge. And, remember, build a culture of togetherness and inclusiveness. That was growing up in the Bronx, like you know 10 people at a table. You had to get along. It's okay to fail. What do you learn? Fail forward, fail fast. Really, what do you learn. What's the learning experience in the failure? Take risks, take calculated risks. So those would be some of the lessons I would share.

Anne McGinty:

Those are incredible lessons, john, thank you so much for coming in the studio today.

John Kilcullen:

So much fun, so glad this venture is doing so. I can see you beaming right now.

Anne McGinty:

Well, I think I just love hearing how people have learned, and I love the stories and the history and the vulnerability, and it's it's fun to me. So I appreciate, though, all of my guests, because my guests are the ones who says a lot is be vulnerable, show weakness, and it's okay to not just always have this veneer that everything's great.

John Kilcullen:

Be honest, be open. Thank you so much. Be well.

Anne McGinty:

Thank you. Today's key takeaways Every entrepreneur should experience sales firsthand to learn resilience, adaptability and the ability to engage authentically. To master sales, practice contextual selling and tailor your approach to your audience. Learn to handle rejection and keep going. Understand belly-to-belly sales and what it means to build real relationships. Ask open-ended questions, get to know your client, identify their needs and present your product or service accordingly. Ask yourself why would my customer want to engage with me? There's a famous expression that luck happens when preparation meets opportunity. So be ready, be open and listen with both your heart and mind. Carpe diem, Make the most out of every chance you get. On branding, make sure your brand is impossible to miss. Be bold, grab attention. Can you tell a better story than your competitors? If you're going into business, you need a strong financial understanding. If you don't have that partner with someone who does, ask your customers for insights. What do they want to see? What is missing for them? They may hold the key to future innovation for you and your business. Stay close to market trends and trust your instincts, especially when you know you've done your homework. Listen to your instinct and notice gaps in the market.

Anne McGinty:

The landscape of publishing is rapidly changing. Today's authors should consider going direct to consumer. Collect emails, build relationships and explore self-publishing to control margins, quality and time to market. Build your own audience. Focus on telling your story and engage directly with readers. The answers are in the market. Don't isolate yourself with yes. People Know your competitors, customers and costs, and be in the marketplace. Build a circle of positive, encouraging people who support you. Avoid the critical, judgmental voices that try to tear you down. Self-care is health care, so prioritize your well-being to sustain your business and personal growth. Hire for your weaknesses and build a team that complements your strengths and addresses your blind spots. And lastly, success comes when your mind, body and spirit are aligned and working together. That's it for today. I release episodes once a week, so come back and check it out. Have a great day.

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