Today we have Nicole Stevenson talking with us about what it takes to start and run a street fair. Nicole is the co-founder CEO of Dear Handmade Life, a company that produces Patchwork Show Festivals in nine cities twice a year, reaching over 500,000 attendees in a marketplace for over 15,000 artists and small business owners. Her business also produces the Craftcation Conference, an incredible five-day event with over 200 craft and business workshops in Ventura, California. That conference has been described as "life-changing" and "an MBA for creatives in a weekend." Dear Handmade Life has been featured on Good Day LA, the Huffington Post and Sonoma Magazine, the LA Times and countless blogs.
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Anne McGinty Host.
Today we have Nicole Stevenson talking with us about what it takes to start and run a street fair. Nicole is the co-founder CEO of Dear Handmade Life, a company that produces Patchwork Show Festivals in nine cities twice a year, reaching over 500,000 attendees in a marketplace for over 15,000 artists and small business owners. Her business also produces the Craftcation Conference, an incredible five-day event with over 200 craft and business workshops in Ventura, California. That conference has been described as "life-changing" and "an MBA for creatives in a weekend." Dear Handmade Life has been featured on Good Day LA, the Huffington Post and Sonoma Magazine, the LA Times and countless blogs.
Subscribe on Apple Podcast , Spotify or other major streaming platforms.
If you have a comment, a question you wish I’d asked, an idea for an episode or want to say hi, I'd love to hear from you!
For inquiring guests, please keep in mind that this podcast is for the benefit of listeners and I am not interested in any “puff pieces.” Thank you for understanding!
Feel free to send me a message through my website, or through LinkedIn.
Follow the show/host on Instagram at
Anne McGinty Host.
So what do you want to do? Do you want to, like look back on your deathbed and say I should have gone after that dream that I always thought about, that was always on my bucket list. Or do you want to say I'm so glad I went out after that and realized I don't want that. You know, or it turned into something great.
Anne McGinty:Welcome to the 26th episode of how I Built my Small Business. I'm Anne McGinty, your host, and today we have Nicole Stevenson talking with us about what it takes to start and run a street fair. Nicole is the co-founder CEO of Dear Handmade Life, a company that produces patchwork show festivals in nine cities twice a year, reaching over 500,000 attendees in a marketplace for over 15,000 artists and small business owners. Her business also produces the Craftcation Conference, an incredible five-day event with over 200 craft and business workshops in Ventura, california. That conference has been described as "life-changing and an MBA for creatives in a weekend. Dear Handmade Life has been featured on Good Day LA, the Huffington Post and Sonoma Magazine, the LA Times and countless blogs. You can find a link through to her business in the episode's description. Thank you to our listeners for being here today. Nicole, thanks for coming on the show. Thank you, I'm very excited to be here. So, to start out, can you tell us what is your connection to crafting? What isn't?
Nicole Stevenson:my connection to crafting. Crafting and making art have been a part of my life ever since I can remember. I mean, I remember seeing my mom at the kitchen table sewing presents for holidays when we were struggling and we couldn't afford presents, and it was just always a part of. Creativity has always been a part of my life and then eventually it became my career too. I never had a career per se before I started my own business.
Nicole Stevenson:I started my own business in my very early 20s, so at that time I was a graduate student and I had, you know odd jobs that you have when you're a student, like waiting tables. I was a CB operator at a, at a company that installed electric doors. I I had so many weird jobs, but usually it was waitressing. So I never had, you know, a professional kind of corporate career that I needed to let go of or decide if I was going to leave in order to pursue a creative life. It was just I always knew I was going to pursue a creative life and it was part of my life while I was in college and graduate school. And then I started my own business. It just happened very organically where I started making things and then somebody wanted to buy it and then I started selling them and it just I kept saying yes and I kept working and it just evolved over time.
Anne McGinty:So what was that first business that you started in your early twenties?
Nicole Stevenson:I started out making art. It was sort of a business, but not quite yet. I was throwing little art shows at galleries and coffee houses and selling my art there and then also inviting other artists to come and sell their art there, and this was probably 25 years ago, so it was not something that was, you know, like a group art show the way the way we see it now in this kind of camaraderie amongst creatives was not as prevalent at that time. So I did that, and then eventually I started taking my art and turning it into a more functional item. So I would turn my drawings and artwork into a screen print and then screen print that on a shirt.
Nicole Stevenson:And then I've always loved vintage fabric, so I would use vintage fabrics and so appliques on there, and that eventually became a clothing line that I had for over a decade. That started out with, you know, me selling stuff at a flea market near my house in Hollywood, where I was living at the time, to having five or six different reps selling my stuff at trade shows all over the country and being in hundreds of stores all around the world. So it started very humbly, very small, and grew into something really cool where I was able to not only support myself, but I was able to hire other creatives who needed a flexible job and, yeah, it was awesome.
Anne McGinty:And so now you are the CEO and founder of Dear Handmade Life. Can you tell listeners a little bit about what this business is?
Nicole Stevenson:It's a community, I feel like, even more than a business. We curate events and education for creatives and creative small business owners. Patchwork Show is how it all started. If you can imagine Etsy in person, it's it's like that. We usually have food trucks and music and then we have craftcation. I feel like craftcation is the thing that I always dreamed of, like I wish I would have had craftcation when I was the business owner starting out. It's craft and business workshops and social gatherings. It's right on the beach, so we have yoga on the beach and meditation on the beach, so there's a wellness focus as well as crafting and building your business and getting to know other people who are in a similar place that you're in a tiny craft fair in the parking lot of my former business partner and her shop at the time, with, I think, 20 vendors and that was it, and we were just like let's throw this holiday craft fair. And then over the years it's evolved into what it is today. Our focus is on creating a place where creative people and also creative business owners to have a place to get education, to be able to find other people who get what their struggles are like.
Nicole Stevenson:It's kind of all the things that I was missing when I started my business, because it was so long ago, the internet wasn't really a thing yet. It's hard to imagine what that world was like. But when I started my business I had this. It was called a Apple blueberry computer. It was like a big bubble thing. It's probably in an antique store now and I had dial up internet. It just wasn't a place where you could type into Google how do I market my business? Or you know what's the best practice on Instagram. Those things didn't exist. You couldn't Google them. There was no social media newsletters. I would just send emails to people you know saying come to my craft fair. So it was a really different world.
Anne McGinty:So what inspired you to start organizing these festivals and street fairs on a grander scale like they are today?
Nicole Stevenson:Yeah, I mean, I think in the beginning there wasn't anything like it in the area where I was. So at that time I had just moved from Los Angeles to Orange County and I had my handmade business, my clothing line that I mentioned earlier, and in order to sell at an in-person show I would have to drive to LA or San Francisco person show. I would have to drive to LA or San Francisco and there was nothing where I was in my entire County and my former business partner and I were talking about it and she had a store and it was like, well, what if we do this? You know what if we just throw this little, this little show? And the response was so overwhelming that we realized, oh my gosh, we have to do this again.
Nicole Stevenson:And then, as we kept doing it, it just really grew itself. It wasn't a decision that we made, that we thought, oh yeah, we want to like, make this huge and have this many vendors. It was just there was a need in the community, in our area, and it just grew itself. Our first location was in Santa Ana and we started out in the parking lot and then we figured out how to close down the street and then we got another parking lot on the street and then it was like, okay, we're too big for here, where are we going to move now? And then we thought, what if we went to another city? So it just kind of again it happened really organically.
Anne McGinty:Can you talk with us a little bit about what that process is of conceptualizing and planning for a festival that occupies a street space?
Nicole Stevenson:Yeah, it was definitely a lot of trial and error and mistakes. I mean, our first show we didn't get permits, we didn't do any of the stuff that we were supposed to do, and my former business partner at the at the time she was waiting tables at this cafe and a lot of cops came in and after we did it a couple of times the cops were like listen, we let you slide under the radar, but like you've got to start doing things by the books now, like we can't let your shows are getting too big, we can't let you slide by. But you know that first show we were like we did so many things wrong. I'm not going to name them all off because I don't know what the statute of limitations is right now and I don't want anybody coming after me, but let's just say we learned a lot. And then over the years it was just, you know, like, okay, what's working, what isn't.
Nicole Stevenson:At this point I feel like we have things pretty dialed down.
Nicole Stevenson:We manage our projects in something called Airtable, which is a platform that's kind of like a spreadsheet, but with a lot more functionality, and we've learned how to get all of those processes organized and created systems so that we're not reinventing the wheel every season, which we really had to do for the first couple of years, because we didn't even know what the wheel looked like.
Nicole Stevenson:So we were like, okay, that didn't work, let's do this. You know, there would be times that we would have a show and the city would come and say like, oh, you didn't get this permit. And we said nobody even told us about that permit, you know, and so over the years, just learning a lot of different things, planning really far ahead, and then also, you know, getting to the point where I have a team that I work with so that I can be in more of a CEO role, and, you know, I definitely have people on my team who we create the vision together, which is really awesome to be able to have that creative collaboration. It's like this is what I'm thinking about. Let's talk about you know what this could look like and the feasibility, or they'll come to me and say, hey, I've got this idea. What do you think Like, can we make this happen? It's a really collaborative process of working together.
Anne McGinty:When it comes to putting on a festival, how far in advance are you needing to start putting the pieces together, and about how much does it cost to even get one up and off the ground before you even pull any vendors in?
Nicole Stevenson:Yeah, the cost really depends on our location, and some of our locations are, you know, larger, where we have 200 vendors, and some are small, where we have 40. And the venue fees vary from $1,000 to a few thousand to much more. It's just really looking at okay, how much space do we have? What's feasible, like looking at the P&L. Before there's any commitment to the event, we'll go out and measure the space. How many vendors can we fit here? How many do we think we're going to be able to get? Is this venue collaborating on promotion or are we paying for all of the marketing?
Nicole Stevenson:And that process starts usually seven or eight months before. For example, this season we have a few new locations and someone on our team will go and scout new locations and we may not actually go into that location for a year. You know, we might not be able to get everything pulled together and there'll be another location. There was one this season where it was like somebody on our team saw it. She was like this seems like a great place. We reached out to them and we said let's talk about fall, and they were like no, we must do spring, you know. So it was like OK, let's whip everything together really fast, which we were able to do because it was private property, whereas if it were, you know us shutting down a city street. That's a whole other story and it would take a lot longer for that.
Anne McGinty:So what are the factors that you're looking at when you are selecting a location?
Nicole Stevenson:We look at how many vendors we can fit there. So we look at parking what's the parking going to be like for the public? We look at the existing foot traffic. If it's a space that doesn't have any foot traffic, we're like, okay, are we going to be able to spend enough on marketing to bring all of the people here? We look at other similar events in the area, like if it's already oversaturated, it's probably not going to be a good bet for us. I think those are the main things that we're looking at.
Anne McGinty:And I went to a festival recently and there were only about, say, 30 vendors, but of those 30 vendors, about 10 were candle makers and 10 were jewelers. How do you approach securing vendors for your events?
Nicole Stevenson:It's changed a lot in the past five years, especially the past three years. We've gone from being the only show like ours in an entire county, like in all of Orange County, to be one of many makers festivals in a single city or an area. So it really has changed over time. And I think before it used to kind of be, you know they say like a buyer or seller's market when it's with real estate. I think before it used to kind of be, you know they say like a buyer, seller's market when it's with real estate.
Nicole Stevenson:I think before it was a show producer's market and now it's a vendor's market because there are so many shows for them to choose from that they're not trapped into. Like this is the only show I have to do, this show, like when I had my handmade business and I was doing a lot of shows, there were really like four you know major shows that I, that I was looking toward, whereas now it's like throw a stone on any Saturday or Sunday and hit at least a few craft or makers markets in your city. We do have a jury that goes through all the applications and decides who's going to get in and who isn't. We definitely do look to hopefully not have too many vendors in the same category, and then over time we learned how to create our map so that these are spaced out. If we do have more than one permanent jewelry person, we at least try to put them on opposite sides of the show.
Anne McGinty:And when it comes to these other competing fairs, what are you doing to make your show stand out?
Nicole Stevenson:Yeah, one of the things that we started doing was we have crafts. We connect with local businesses in the area to give them a free booth to promote their business in exchange for them offering an experience at our show. So that would be like whether it's a demo or a craft or something like that. And in addition to that, we offer any of our vendors who want to have some kind of a craft activity at their booth. We offer them a partial refund on their booth space. So let's say that you are a jewelry maker and you have a booth and you set up a little coloring station for kids to do coloring, which is really actually great for you, so that the kids are busy while the parents are shopping in your booth so they're not distracted. We give the vendor a discount for that.
Nicole Stevenson:And we also have another aspect of our shows which is probably my favorite part is is a few years ago we started doing something called Patchwork Junior, so we have a certain section of the shows that's dedicated to vendors who are under 18. So it's so cool. Some of our shows have big Patchwork Junior sections and some of them don't have any. Some of our shows will have up to 20 kids, patchwork, junior vendors who set up their own booth. They make their own product, they have their own displays. There's always a parent with them. That's one of the requirements that we have. So those are a few of the things that we've done to differentiate ourselves and stand out, while also staying true to our mission to our mission.
Anne McGinty:So when you say Patchwork, Junior, are you talking about miners who are crafting and then selling their crafts?
Nicole Stevenson:Yes, yes, so it's a section. It's a section so we'll have our show and then we'll have like a small section at our show that's just for these junior vendors, and then we have them go through the application process. It's a different application because a lot of them don't have websites or something. So we're just like you know, photograph of your work, tell us why you love to make things, you know. So it's a different set of questions and they go through the whole you know, during process so they get to experience everything.
Anne McGinty:So what are some of the challenges and I know there must be many that you face as an organizer of these festivals?
Nicole Stevenson:There are so many challenges. Last season, weather and natural events have increasingly become a bigger problem than they used to be. So last season there was unseasonably warm weather. Last season there was unseasonably warm weather and one of our locations is next to these vintage airport hangers and a spontaneous fire started in one of these. I mean I'm talking like it's a huge airport hangar. They were, I think, from world war ii, and inside the hangar was asbestos. So the fire started and there was asbestos debris everywhere.
Nicole Stevenson:So we had to postpone that show. The fire started, it went out, and so we were like we will have the show. We've been approved to have the show. If you're uncomfortable, wear a mask. And then the night before the show the fire spontaneously reignited. Oh my gosh. So the night before the show, I fire spontaneously reignited. Oh my gosh.
Nicole Stevenson:So the night before the show, I mean this happened at like six, seven o'clock at night. Then you think, well, maybe not all these vendors are going to check their email. So I literally texted every single vendor that we had it was like all hands on deck, you know calling our social media manager so that she could post on social media this show is postponed. It was just things like that. You know, we had a show two weeks ago and a surprise storm happened where it was like raining sideways. We had to close the show early and then, you know, offer those vendors credit for one of our other shows.
Nicole Stevenson:So it's just like. You know, other times you'll do a show in a location and there'll be tons of people there and everything's great, everybody's happy, and you'll do the exact same advertising in the exact same space for the next show and you're like, where is everybody? There's so many factors that are just completely out of your control. It's kind of like having dozens of weddings a year. You know where you're planning your wedding and it's just like, okay, cousin Joe's going to get too drunk and pass out on the lawn. It's like there's always going to be this just random, unpredictable stuff that will happen. We've had people pass out from heat exhaustion. We've had somebody trip. We've had oh my gosh, an unhoused person like with a knife running through the show. I mean, there's like so many, so many things that are just almost impossible to predict.
Anne McGinty:And they're outside of your control, then all you can really do is deal with them when they happen.
Nicole Stevenson:Yeah, absolutely. I mean speaking about weather. This was several years ago. We had one of our biggest shows of the year and there was again a surprise storm. So the vendors are trying to load in. It's raining. So my mom was at that show, so I sent her to Target and I was like buy as many ponchos and umbrella, you know, buy all this stuff and brought it back. We handed it to the vendors. They were so grateful to the vendors. They were so grateful. Other vendors were like sharing their umbrellas with each other or sharing tarps, and then, you know, the show started at 11, about 1230, it stopped raining and the sun came out and it was just like what a gift. It ended up being such a beautiful day and just seeing that camaraderie and that helping amongst the vendors was really incredible.
Anne McGinty:What's your favorite part about the shows?
Nicole Stevenson:You know, seeing somebody have their first time they're doing a craft fair and then seeing their business evolve over time. It's so incredible to see people's success journeys from where they started to where they end up being, and to also see that camaraderie and community and to also see that camaraderie and community.
Anne McGinty:So realistically, how much can a vendor make in a single location festival?
Nicole Stevenson:I'll go, not necessarily from our vendors, but I'll go from my experience as a vendor, which, again, I haven't vended at a show for probably eight years or something. But I'll tell you right now not much has changed. I have had shows where I did not sell anything and then I was out my time, my booth fee, all of that stuff. Over time I learned that I could make the most out of every experience by getting something else out of the show, like looking for an ROI that wasn't monetary. So whether that's building my community through talking to other vendors, whether that's bringing some you know side work to do while I'm there, or brainstorming ideas, you know, there are so many other ways that I could make that time worth it.
Nicole Stevenson:Even if I wasn't doing well financially, I think my best show I ever did I made $8,000.
Nicole Stevenson:And I remember going back and staying at a friend's house and and sitting there and like counting up all my money and going, oh my gosh, this is amazing. So that would be like the worst and the best. And then on average I would say a few hundred dollars, you know, anywhere from like two to six or maybe eight would be, depending on what type of stuff you have and what type of show it is, and whether it's one day or two days, you know you should hope to make back your booth fee and be able to pay yourself for your time there. Anything above that is profit. As long as you're making your booth fee back and being able to pay for your time, for me that show is worth it because there are other benefits that you're getting there. I can't tell you how many times I would sell at a show and somebody would email me afterwards and say, oh, I saw you at the show. I wasn't ready to buy, but I'm ready now.
Anne McGinty:Well, I recently spoke to the founder of MapTote and she was talking about how she was discovered at a show and that led to a deal with JCrew and it led to a deal with Martha Stewart. So it's like you're saying, it's exposure.
Nicole Stevenson:Absolutely. I have a little MapTote bag right now that I just got at a conference from the city of Pasadena and I love MapTote, so sweet yeah.
Anne McGinty:Yeah, great brand. So, when it comes to the actual running and managing of a festival, how do you budget and how do you get sponsors?
Nicole Stevenson:Those sponsorships come from a variety of places. I mean, we definitely do a lot of cold emailing. So we have a database that we've created of potential sponsors we want to reach out to, created of potential sponsors we want to reach out to. We work to look for the right person to email and then we have pitch emails that we personalize for those brands. We also will reach out on social media through DM sometimes, and then some sponsors reach out to us. We go to other conferences and trade shows to see who is sponsoring other similar type events and to try to create those relationships there. Sometimes sponsorship can be years in the works before it materializes into them actually being a sponsor. So we really look for brands that have a similar mission so that we don't mind spending all that time creating this relationship because we enjoy it and they have a similar mission to us.
Anne McGinty:And when it comes to marketing the festivals, what strategies do you use to promote?
Nicole Stevenson:So, yeah, we have our own marketing channels. So email newsletter that we have a little over 30,000 people on that email newsletter and then our social media accounts. We do some paid social media advertising as well. Aside from that, we have a press list that we reach out to. So that's more of like a grassroots style where it might be things to do in Sonoma County, calendar things like that. So someone on our team reaches out to all of those, post them on all the event calendars and we sometimes take out ads in the local weekly papers. So, like the Bohemian in Northern California would be one that we would do. We've tried everything. We've done direct mailing before. We've done radio ads. Both of those did improve to be super successful for us, but I'm still glad I tried them so that I know we also do some grassroots postcarding. So we still print out postcards and posters and then we have a street team that goes around to businesses in that area where we think our customers might be. You know customers that would enjoy coming to a makers festival.
Anne McGinty:Like a postcard at a coffee shop or something.
Nicole Stevenson:Exactly exactly.
Anne McGinty:So I know that your festivals range significantly in size and location. Can you give us an idea of how much revenue you can generate from a single festival?
Nicole Stevenson:Yeah, I mean it depends on that location, but it can be gross revenue from $5,000 on the low end to $30,000 on the high end, so with an average of maybe $10,000 to $15,000. And then again there's a cost that are associated with that venue. But then there's also year-round expenses that go into that. For example, my social media manager, who you know is working to promote the shows throughout the year. I have to think about that and which percentage of her work is going to that and then investments in like tools and equipment and things that I have to amortize to see what portion those are of the expenses.
Anne McGinty:What are you doing when you aren't planning for one of your nearly 20 festivals and the annual Craftcation conference?
Nicole Stevenson:We've noticed that with Craftcation and Patchwork Show, it's like these events are, you know, twice a year, once a year, and there's this time in between where you still need to feel like you're not alone and you still need to be able to ask someone for mentorship and be building your business and community in those in-between times. So that was why we created the club and we meet a couple of times a month. We bring in an expert to teach a business class. I lead a mentorship session. We also have every other month a craft and chat session where we're just, you know, on zoom, crafting and chatting. We all talk about what we're working on. Sometimes it goes into business or personal growth and then courses. So it's a lot. It's a lot. It's grown over time. I mean, I've had this business for over 16 years.
Anne McGinty:Are there any parts of your business that you aren't enjoying?
Nicole Stevenson:I think the podcast is like my least favorite right now because it's been probably 10 years and I took a break before Craftcation, the year before, which I normally do. I take like a spring break and I never went back. You know, to restart it and I've tried to explore, like why, what is it? And I think I'm ready to reimagine our podcast and I don't know what that is. Yet One of the great things about owning your own business is that I am my boss and I could choose to be a jerk boss or I could choose to be a nice and understanding boss. Who's like okay, why? Why are you going to put effort and time into something that your heart isn't in right now? Like, how can you make this something that you love doing and that your community needs and loves? So that's what I'm trying to figure out right now.
Anne McGinty:What advice do you have for aspiring entrepreneurs?
Nicole Stevenson:If you are just starting out, my advice is to say yes more than you say no. My advice is to say yes more than you say no. That is how you end up figuring out what works and it will also the best way to build up that risk taking muscle. Because when you fail, you come out of the other side and you're like okay, I'm still here, I'm okay, I am still here, so you're able to have the confidence to take risk again, because you know it's not the end of the world. So don't be scared of being wrong, of failing, of doing something before you're ready. Just do it, scared.
Anne McGinty:That's a big one, because I think fear is what limits so many people and their potential.
Nicole Stevenson:Absolutely and not to get religious, but nobody is 100% sure of what happens when you die. Nobody is 100% sure. So this could be it, you know. So what do you want to do? Do you want to, like, look back on your deathbed and say I should have gone after that dream that I always thought about, that was always on my bucket list? Or do you want to say I'm so glad I went out after that and realized I don't want that, you know, or it turned into something great.
Anne McGinty:So for the final question if you could go back and talk with yourself when you were in your early 20s, what would you say?
Nicole Stevenson:There are so many things that I would say I think one of the biggest things would be to respect money. I think that I always thought, oh, I'll figure out retirement, I'll figure out what the heck a 401k thing is. Later it was always later for me I didn't think it was important and I had the starving artist mentality of thinking like, oh, I don't have to worry about that. I'm an artist, you know, I'm always going to be financially unstable. I don't need to understand that stuff. I wish that I would have focused some energy on understanding finance and to put away money to start my own retirement fund, because that information isn't really something that's talked about, at least in the creative small business field. Everybody's talking about marketing and how to do Instagram and how to do this and all of that, but truly pay attention to your money and respect it.
Anne McGinty:That is great advice, and I think that getting older creeps up on us faster than we expect.
Nicole Stevenson:Absolutely.
Anne McGinty:Well, Nicole, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing what you know with all of us.
Nicole Stevenson:Thank you for having me. I've very much enjoyed it.
Anne McGinty:Thank, you so much. Today's key takeaways Businesses are often born from merely filling a need, so pay attention and listen in for what people are needing and wanting. Be willing to just get started and to make mistakes, then figure out what works and what doesn't, and go from there Trial and error. Airtable is a software that allows any team, regardless of technical skill, to build customized project management. So if you're in need of something like this, check it out. If you're interested in having a go at running a street fair, the process can take about seven to eight months before, or even more, so start early.
Anne McGinty:Private property may be easier logistically than public streets. Consider parking, existing foot traffic and work out your potential profit and loss before committing. Because there are several competitors in this space, you'll have to think about how you can set yourself apart and make your shows stand out in comparison to the existing ones. If you're thinking about signing up to be a vendor at a street fair, just know that you could make zero or maybe even up to $8,000 or more, but on average you may only make $200 to $800. But being a vendor at a street fair can be a great way to get exposure and to make connections.
Anne McGinty:Failing is one of the best ways to build up your risk-taking muscle. Don't be scared of being wrong or doing something before you're ready. Just do it scared. Respect money and focus some energy on understanding finance. Start saving money when you're young, even if you don't think you need to, and start contributing to a retirement fund, even if the idea of retirement feels so far away. This reminds me of the advice Kelsey Schofsky of ShelterCo made in the 10th episode, where she said she wished she'd started investing when she was 12. If you haven't yet listened to that episode, it's a great one. That's all for today. I release episodes once a week, so come back and check it out. Have a great day.